Reverse Engineering Article in Wired Magazine

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In 2005, Toyota sold 107,897 Prii in the US.

Let's compare that figure to the ENTIRE US SALES of other well-known brands:

Audi 83,066
Infiniti 136,401
Isuzu 12,177
Jaguar 30,424
Mini 40,820
Mitsubishi 123,995
Porsche 31,933
Saab 38,343
Subaru 196,002
Suzuki 82,101
Volvo 123,874

Point? If it is futile for Toyota to produce the Prius because the numbers are so low, then all these other brands had better drop out of the US market pronto.

Source:
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/...0112_680347.htm

- Bob R.

 

yes very good point .... 100.000 units for a single car model is not bad... and they still have people waiting for it and selling it as MSRP!

 

Yeah, like Toyota is sitting idle with their fuel cell car development. That's exactly the mentality that will drive them out of the number 1 spot.

 

Not really. Comparing Porsche selling 36,000 cars to ANY Toyota car is simply misleading.

Porsche doesn't make enough cars to sell that many. Also, when you consider that most of their cars are over $60,000, and go up to $440,000, the comparison falls apart. Nearly the same with Jaguar. They've only recently expanded into lower priced cars.

Another bad example is the Mini. It's an extreme niche market, and was never expected to sell many examples.

Some of hte examples, though are quite telling. Isuzu... Just give up already.

 

DocVijay -

I had similar thoughts about Porsche, et al, but I basically included anyone on the list under 200,000 units and didn't attach value judgements.

- Bob R.

 

GM are idiots. Toyota is getting real, live, production experience with the electric motors, control systems, and other components that will be the mainstay of fuel-cell cars in the future. By the time the first FC car rolls off the line, Toyota will have extensive experience in building, delivering, maintaining, and supporting electric drive systems. Toyota will reap the benefits, and as a believer in the free market I can't complain about that. But as an American I'm sad to see an icon like GM exhibit such poor judgement.

 

Is this a fair comparison between Prius and Malibu?
Prius is a full-hybrid with 50kW motor and Malibu is a mild-hybrid with only 3kW motor.

I believe Prius should be compared with GM's two-mode hybrid system.
Prius uses two MG's, one planetary gear set and no clutch.
The two-mode system uses two MG's, two planetary gear sets and three clutches.
It is very clear which system is more simple.

Ken@Japan

 

As you know Toyota's fuel cell system is called FCHV (Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle) and it is based on the hybrid technology. The FCHV is still dual power, fuel cell and battery.
Or, doesn't GM's system use battery at all?

Ken@Japan

 

These people running GM, Ford, etc. need to stop pretending to be automotive experts -- they are running once successful automobile companies into the ground and kill a US industry.

 

Didn't even read through the whole thread. Working in automotive, for a tier-1 supplier, I have dealt with GM as a customer for a long time. Heck, I went to GMI for my undergrad engrg. degree. But, man, does everyone out there see these comments? Wow.
What is it with this company? I should say, with this company's mgmt?
Man oh man!
Use any metphor you'd like -- head in the sand, whatever.
A 2x4 hit on the head isn't enough I guess.
Geez, this is very depressing to see a company with so many resources to throw out technology in the light of upcoming $3/gal gasoline prices (again) in favor of Hummers.

But, if you think about it longer, you can understand --- they have no choice.
GM can't build a Prius and make any money, let alone stay in business. But, many (including me) think Toyota loses $$ on every Prius they sell. It's a strategic decision - it's called foresight.
We dissected a Prius when the '04's came out. Very impressive. The quote is correct - 'beautifully cut gears, great little motors, parts, etc. Look at GM's stuff -- it's ugly. Ok, that 427 alum small block in the Corvette is nice, although it's not what this planet needs now.
GM needs to sell fully deluxe, $40k vehicles to have a chance to make any profit. So, they spin whatever they can to try to survive.
I feel sorry for them, really. There are good car guys & gals in that company. Too bad they're not in charge.
Love my Prius, although only 50mi on it, and saving it until the salt is off the roads. I did take it for a spin yesterday, disabled beepers, learned about things, etc. Very efficient car, and very impressive technology.
GM could do this, and even more. So could Toyota. Difference is that GM has their head in the sand trying to survive selling Hummers and Hi-Po Cadillacs, while Toyota is designing the next-gen Prius or other next-gen technology.
Get a clue, GM.

 

Ken,

Great point. Since Fuel Cell technology will probably be quite expensive at first, the most reasonable thing to do would be to mate it with a more "mature" hybrid system to increase overall efficency, shrink the fuel stack etc. Toyota, Honda, and Ford are getting real world experience with systems that will most likely be used with fuel cell vehicles giving them a head start.

Maybe, just maybe GM should rethink their plan.

One more thing, quite possibly GM should just stick with the mild hybrids. Think about it. In the context of modern day technology, there is no good reason to EVER have an automobile idle. If GM was smart, they would put a low cost mild hybrid system on every damned car they made. Even if all it did was just stop the car form idleing and restart the engine, that would dramatically increase city MPG estimates. Then GM could take the crown for fleet MPG.

Just a thought,
Cosmo

 

I am fully of the opinion that GM is not seriously intending to build a fuel-cell car. Fuel cells are ridiculously complicated, expensive, and impractical, especially considering the hydrogen network needed to sustain them. GM is only claiming to focus on this to make it appear like they're a high-tech company with the future in mind.

If they're doing such wonders with fuel cells, why is Honda the only company to create a consumer FCV? And Ford created a working prototype Focus FCV, though not safety-tested like Honda's. But no word from GM.

 

I think that Toyota already has that figured out... 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid... 40 MPG combined... THE most popular car in North America...

If GM still thinks that Toyota is still "in the process" of figuring out the hybrid market, they're mistaken... Toyota has a plan, and they are already executing on it.

Toyota's other hybrids, the Highlander and the RX400h have sold well... about 1/4 of all Highlanders and RX400hs sold were hybrid versions...

Imagine if they get the same kind of sales with the Camry, America's #1 car... i'd say hybrids would make it into the mainstream.

 

In other words: "We have no clue, but we *do* have a generous Corporate Golden Parachute package."

 

These comments from GM Marketing is nothing more than putting down Full Hybrid technology (to make themselves look good). You think they should come out and say... WOW... the Toyota hybrid is so good that we GM Engineers don't know what the heck we are thinking.

These efforts are nothing more than trying to make their mild hybrid to "seem" more efficient and "simpiler".

Look at Microsoft. They spent millions doing "studies" on Linux/Mircosoft OS. All results said Microsoft OS are better in every way. That is funny when most IT people are moving to Linux from Microsoft. :lol:

And this is no difference than what GM is doing.