Right bashing

It is indeed shameful when legislators vote to keep the wages of the lowest-paid Americans down, while consistently raising their own wages. I have long advocated that all elected officials should, by Constitutional amendment, receive the minimum wage (plus a free bus pass). Of course, they could set the minimum wage as high as they liked, provided there are no loopholes that would allow employers to pay some people less.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 26 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]381396[/snapback]</div>

What percentage of adult, full time hourly workers earn the minimum wage?

 

I've concluded this whole minimum wage thing is pretty much a political punching bag. The dems demand it, even though it affects few and the repubs always scream that it's going to kill employment/business. There's probably a sliver of truth to each argument, but how come nobody asks the hard question...


Shouldn't there be a minimum skills mandate if there is a minimum wage mandate?

I mean really, unless you're a teenager flipping burgers for his/her first job, you pretty much must have no real job skills to offer if you are making minimum wage. Sorry if that offends, but that's the way I see it.
(Exception being those with true mental / physical disabilities that impact their job skills/ wage earning prospects).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TimBikes @ Jan 26 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]381550[/snapback]</div>

In southern California, "burger flipping" at IN-N-Out starts at about $9 an hour. Only 10% of teens in this country work for minimum wage, and under 3% of hourly workers earned the minimum wage or less in 2004. And only 59% of the country has hourly wages, so the true percentage of minimum age workers is less than 2%.

See http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2004.htm for the stats.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 26 2007, 11:42 PM) [snapback]381590[/snapback]</div>

Does that account for states that have a higher than federally mandated minimum wage? From the data, it looks as if people making the minimum wage in California (which is higher than the federal minimum) aren't counted as making the minimum wage. Currently, 28 states (and two districts) have minimum wages set above the federal level.

One point, then... if so few people are making the minimum wage, why don't the Republicans just back down on this and raise it? It sounds like this would be a win-win for everyone. Republicans and Democrats would get credit for being "for the people", but the majority of employers wouldn't feel the effect because they are already paying their workers more than minimum wage anyway.

One of the arguments I've heard is that teens shouldn't be mandated to make as high a minimum as the Democrats are proposing. If you do a scaled minimum, for example setting the minimum for people aged 16-20 at a couple of bucks less than the accepted adult minimum, how do you prevent age discrimination. What prevents an employer from firing someone on their 21st birthday and hiring a 16 year old to replace them. What does this do to retirees in the minimum wage workforce. Can you have a two-tiered system without the bad aspects?

As for the topic at hand, the senators that voted for this were voting to give each state the ability to set a localized minimum wage as opposed to having a federally mandated minimum. Their point was that the federal government shouldn't be in the business of setting the standards - the state should. As much as I hate to admit it, this has some validity. States with low costs of living could set their minimum low, while states like California could maintain higher minimums (which they already do). Unfortunately, this has it's bad side. In Kansas, for example, the state minimum wage is set at $2.65 per hour. That means a full time worker in Kansas could legally be paid as little as $5,088 per year (assuming 48 five day work weeks per year. The extra four weeks cover vacation and holidays). I don't think anyone could actually successfully live on that amount. Five states don't even have minimum wages defined. Check out the the information here.

I would argue that the federal government should set a minimum, but that should be a reasonable representation of a minimum living wage for the entire nation... still allowing states to go higher if they need to. If a state didn't live up to this, the federal government should step in and force a minimum.

So, what was up with the senators that voted for this? Come election time, this is going to be a huge issue, and they should have seen that coming. Is it fair? Probably not, but politics is all about perception. If you are going to vote on something that appears to be very anti-populist, you have to expect to get slammed on it.

Dan

 

Well PC is the right place for 90% right winger bashing, just look at most threads in FHOP...

The remaining 10% of us out here just annoy the other 90% :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 27 2007, 09:33 AM) [snapback]381688[/snapback]</div>

And isn't this statement a microcosm of our nation? 90% are ready to move forward in a reasonable direction, while 10% get their jollies f**king it up for the majority. Talk about a perverted raison d'etre. Sad little people and their sad little lives!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 27 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]381677[/snapback]</div>

I'd have to look again, but those stats are for the federal minimum wage, IIRC, and cover the entire nation. There just aren't that many people working for the minimum wage who actually earn the minimum wage (some jobs involve tips, and may be at the minimum when you don't count tip income).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 27 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]381677[/snapback]</div>

For the same reason that the unions support it. They have negotiated much higher wages than the minimum wage for their members, so why do they care? The federal minimum wage is sometimes used as a benchmark ... "our members should earn twice the minimum wage!" ... or, "We pay you 20% more than minimum wage". Raising the minimum wage can and does have a ripple effect on other wages in this way.

So there is some rationale for raising the minimum wage. The thing I object to is the idea that America is a horrible nation for having a minimum wage you can't live on. Here's the thing: very few people actually make less than or equal to the minimum wage.

Its stupid for the government to try and regulate the marketplace too much. We do have a duty to protect those that are the most vulnerable from exploitation from employers who would offer them less. We have to remember that half the country is below the median IQ level, and less intelligent people can be exploited easily. I think trying to set a law with different minimums for different people would be a disaster, and only serve to discriminate against groups with a higher minimum (as you note, with your age discrimination example: except that age discrimination against younger people is perfectly acceptable under law ... you can fire a younger employee in favor of an older one, but cannot fire someone over 50 (45?) just because they are old.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jan 27 2007, 10:02 AM) [snapback]381696[/snapback]</div>

NO!

Cut-and-Run is not a reasonable fashion for 90% of the people in the nation.

Now if you were to say, “90% of the nation would like the war to end.†. . . granted, I'd go with that.
90% of the people WOULD like the war to end at some point!
But, good luck getting 90% of the people to agree on what constitutes a “reasonable direction.†:mellow:

To infer that 90% of the nation would like our military to just up-and-leave-Iraq in an orderly ('redeployment' euphemism) fashion is wishful thinking on your part.

That sentiment may play in San Francisco, where registered Republicans number just under 11%. But I have my suspicions that your statement wouldn't survive your 90% threshold in your home county of Marin . . . 22.44% registered Republican.

And while on the subject . . . Just how “blue†of a state is California?

42.48% Democrat
34.33% Republican
8.15 percentage point difference!

A difference of only 1,291,594 out of 15,837,108 registered voters.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/ror/15day_06gen/county.pdf

So MarinJohn, just how dark of a shade of blue do you have in your glasses?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Jan, 11:49 AM) [snapback]381724[/snapback]</div>

I really don't see how you extrapolated MarinJohn's statement to mean that 90% of our nation wants the military to up-and-leave Iraq. Where the heck did that come from?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Jan 27 2007, 12:03 PM) [snapback]381729[/snapback]</div>

WHERE THE HECK??? The subject line of the thread . . . “Right bashing, I found this interesting...â€

Doesn't matter the subject – just plug one in . . . after all, we're "Right bashing."
No matter what, MarinJohn's 90% is a tough hurdle to clear.

Question (and hint): What has been topic #1 in “Right bashing�

Correct! The war in Iraq.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 27 2007, 11:22 AM) [snapback]381714[/snapback]</div>

It would be more interesting to note how many people are paid the minumum wage mandated by their state. That might give a good idea of how many people are actually paid the minnimum wage as defined by whatever their locality is.

I'd tend to believe this would be somewhat more of a representative number, as many employers will probably try to pay the minimum possible. As well, look at the states that either match or run below the federally set minimum wage; many of those have sparse populations (Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Nebraska, New Mexico), while the states with the most workers have minimum wages above the federal mandate. This probably throws off your numbers a bit. Although, I grant that my numbers might not be all that much better.

One interesting thing I didn't know is that:

<blockquote>The minimum wage law (the FLSA) applies to employees of enterprises that do at least $500,000 in business a year. It also applies to employees of smaller firms if the employees are engaged in interstate commerce or in the production of goods for commerce, such as employees who work in transportation or communications or who regularly use the mails or telephones for interstate communications. It also applies to employees of federal, state or local government agencies, hospitals and schools, and it generally applies to domestic workers.

</blockquote>It would seem like many small businesses would be exempt from the Federal laws anyway (but possibly not the state mandated minimums). Wonder how many small employers realize this.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Jan, 12:55 PM) [snapback]381738[/snapback]</div>

Then why are you the first person in the thread to say anything about Iraq? Everybody else has been talking about minimum wage.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 26 2007, 09:44 PM) [snapback]381546[/snapback]</div>

I don't know. But one is too many. Far more relevant is the number of people working full-time and receiving less than a living wage. One is too many here, too, but shamefully, the number is far greater, as the minimum wage is probably around one-half to one-third of a living wage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 27 2007, 09:33 AM) [snapback]381688[/snapback]</div>

Actually, speaking for myself, I only find 2 or 3 of the right-wingers here to be annoying. I find I can have a civil discussion with most (including yourself) because most of you are good people with whom I disagree. There's just a few (such as the B-man) who invent or intentionally repeat lies that have been shown to be untrue, or who consistently and intentionally misreprsent the people they are arguing with.

It should not be surprising that an environmental car would appeal to more liberals than conservatives. But most of you are not annoying at all. A chat board where everyone agrees is awfully dull. And I find it a hopeful sign that there are conseratives who are concerned about the environment and are therefore drawn to the Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 27 2007, 02:22 PM) [snapback]381714[/snapback]</div>

I agree, the minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. At some point I would hope that all employees would be able to gain some skills and thus earn more than the minimum wage. However, I also recognize that there are those who due to other circumstances are stuck in min. wage or near-min. wage jobs. I support raising the min. wage, and always have.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Jan 27 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]381758[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Must be a guilty conscience!

If 9/11 was tied into Iraq, then I suppose the min. wage can be also!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Jan 27 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]381758[/snapback]</div>

Why was I the first to bring it up? Apparently because the 90% liberal FHOP readership was too busy nodding their heads in agreement. :lol:

So, when MarinJohn is saying, “And isn't this statement a microcosm of our nation? 90% are ready to move forward in a reasonable direction . . .†- you believe he was talking only about minimum wage? :huh:

Ninety percent of the people of our nation want the minimum wage raised? Yeah, Right!!!!

I don't think you could even get 90% of San Franciscans to agree on that one. And I bet a lot smaller percent of the liberal small business owners would happily agree to something which could force them out of business.

FHOP as a microcosm of our nation???? San Francisco, yes . . . but not the entire nation. And as I had shown above, not even 'blue' California or even bluer than blue Marin County fit that mold.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 27 2007, 03:40 PM) [snapback]381772[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure whether fshagen should be considered a right-winger... he seems to lean that way, but generally provides intelligent arguments to support his position. He isn't a typical neo-con propaganda-spewing poster like some who hang out in the House of Pancakes (you know who I mean!).

I quite enjoy the fshagen posts and discussions, myself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Jan 27 2007, 08:12 PM) [snapback]381791[/snapback]</div>

You are apparently extremely sensitive and paranoid about people discussing the Iraq situation. MarinJohn wasn't. Watch out for the voices in your head...

Now, going back to movement in a reasonable direction...I wouldn't be surprised if at least 75% of the people of this country want the minimum wage increased, and that number could absolutely be 90%. And this is me, coming from a red state, thankyouverymuch.

The 10-25% that I imagine would be against it would be the upper class, afraid that it may cut in on their earnings on Wall Street. I was a member of the "working poor" part of this country for the first 24 years of my life(as are many red-state folks). For the last eight years of that era, the two or three times it got bumped up, it meant that I was able to pay my electric bill on time, buy socks, etc. It was a HUGE boon to me to go from 3.35 an hour to 3.80. It also meant I could cut back from working all the time AND going to college full-time.

It's an EMBARRASSMENT that we haven't had an increase in 10 years. The same people who say that welfare programs should be abolished are the same ones saying that minimum wage should stay a non-living wage. It's ridiculous. We want a nation of workers? Pay 'em to do a job...and no, I'm not pro-union. I say get rid of them, too. (Please, pro-union folks, don't trash me too hard. I grew up around coal, and I got nothing but bad to say about unions NOW...they started out as a good thing, then became something not needed with government agencies like OSHA. Of course, this is just my opinion. They were an end result of unbridled capitalism.)

 

I remember in the early 80's I was paid $3.65 an hr and thought I was in the big time, Now in 07 its like $5.15. and they want to raise it to 6.15? Hell if you break my hourly down after taxes Im only making $12.70 now.. And for a non-colleged job thats good money, I have still met people that work for burger king that have degrees in engineering and are just waiting for the right jobs to open up.

Waitresses only make $2-3 an hr + tips, and are supposed to claim their tips also.

Most County Road workers start at $7.00 an hr. here in Fla. :huh:

Yes pay does greatly vary state to state.. North easterners make more money than south easterners.