Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Tenet, others to be tried for war crimes

Let me just zip up the asbestos suit here - get my flame resistant helmet screwed into place (click) - OK - here we go. Ahem.

The stature and integrity of the United States would be greatly enhanced, not diminished, if we ourselves bound Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, Tenet, AND Cheney, Bush, Rice, Powell, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft, et. al. over to the Hague for trial for war crimes. It would signal to a wary world that we, too, cannot abide obvious and blatant criminals, that their monopolistic occupation of the seats of power was an aberration, hopefully never to be repeated, and that the United States is a responsible member of the community of nations, not an outlaw.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

Don't you worry, I predict the new Dem majority will get around to that.

 

If it goes through, I'm sure they'll be tried in absentia.

And the U.S. will ignore the verdict.

So Rumsfeld will never be able to travel in Germany. I doubt he'll consider that much of a loss.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 11 2006, 12:04 AM) [snapback]347365[/snapback]</div>

He might not be able to leave the country. What other countries have extradition treaties with Germany?

He probably won't conisder having to stay in the U.S. a loss either though.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 11 2006, 03:04 AM) [snapback]347365[/snapback]</div>

That's just it, though. As the global economy and America's spendthrift ways mature, the U.S. will become so hollowed out that we won't have the power or the will to protect the bushies. Already, the fed can no longer influence U.S. economic problems. Witness the endless stream of rate hikes that they've initiated to no avail. Mortgage foreclosures are increasing. Not just here in the Detroit area but in Atlanta, Denver, Houston, Dallas, Ft Lauderdale. The economy is doing well only because a tremendous number of people are maxing out their credit cards in a futile attempt at keeping up with appearances. Productivity is stagnant. Experts are telling us that erasing the deficit won't really help any longer. The list is endless. What a lot of people don't understand is that this country is no longer the greatest country on earth. We're owned, bought and sold by people in other countries and protectionism would only make it worse. The bushies and the people who've put them and kept them in power for six years continue to be in denial and do nothing to bring this country back up to speed to at least compete and survive in the global economy. There are a great many forces that are all coming to a head at the same time. There's a perfect storm brewing that will make protecting the bushies from the rest of the world the least of our worries. Hopefully, it's not too late and hopefully, we'll have the political will to do what we need to do.

 

Being a democrocy, Bush was elected by the people so he was just doing the people's business in Iraq. Those other guys were appointed by Bush and approved by your elected legislature. Bottom line, all those guys were representing you.

So, now that you've already determined guilt and it was you who done it, go hang yourself and save the germans the effort.


On a more realistic note. Condi should just place a private call to the germans and let them know if they pull this crap, we're cutting them off. The phone will go dead on our end Germany and by executive order, all trade, air flights and contact will be cut off from America. We will have our embassy empty within the hour.

 

It's like real estate - location, location, location.

They do say what they want in Germany and try who they want there but if Rumsfeld etal never go there, it won't mean much.

If the Germans were really serious they would take the case to the UN at the Haige and use an international process. It may have the same outcome but higher visibility.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Nov 10 2006, 10:50 PM) [snapback]347293[/snapback]</div>

Iv'e been surprised to find at work that many people never heard of the Arar tragedy, and not one has read the torture act. It probably takes a trial at the Hague to at least get Americans informed to what their government has been up to these past six years.

 

The conservatives will sputter and fume (as Daron above) but if the U.S. can put foreign leaders on trial in our criminal courts, (e.g. Noriega) then the Germans can try our leaders in their courts.

The latest excuse for the war in Iraq is that Hussein was a criminal. Well, if the U.S. can declare a foreign leader a criminal, then the Germans can declare our leaders criminals.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Schmika: You never cease to amaze me: Do you really believe the Democrats will send our leaders to the Hague for trial? Are you so fuzzy about governmental powers as to think that the Congress even has the authority to do that? Extradition is an administrative procedure, over which the courts have final say. Congress is out of the decision-making on such matters. Sure, there might be one or two Democrats who would like to send these scumbags off for trial, but the bulk of the Democratic party is just as jingoistic as the Republicans.

It will be good if the Germans go through with this. Not because it would bring Rummy et. al. to justice, but because it would bring the truth out into the open. It would be even better if CNN covered the trial so that the American people could learn the truth.

 

It's not real obvious from the article, and it should have been, but if you actual read the article and pay attention to it, you will discover that it is not the German government, or actually anyone of significance that is filing these charges. The articles says "New legal documents, to be filed next week with Germany's top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution of Rumsfeld...". Notice that it says that the documents will be filed with Germany's top prosecutor, not that the prosecutor is filing charges, or for that matter that the prosecutor has even heard of the case.

So basically, some lawyer held a press conference stating that he intends to petition the German courts to try Rumsfeld and others. This has about as much significance at this point as if they had said they were going to file legal documents against Mickey Mouse.

So, for all of you salivating at the prospect of Rumsfeld, Gonzales, and Tenet being placed on trial for war crimes in Germany, you should at least wait to see if the German courts take up the case, or simply ignore it.

 

Big deal. This is, after all, the justice system that let the guy who stabbed Seles, ruining her career, walk.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 11 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]347383[/snapback]</div>

The Fed never could influence the big economic picture. It is way too complicated for a few little rate hikes to control. As for the foreclosures, that's probably due to buyer stupidity....buying big and using a stupid adjustable. What was worse was the credit card companies writing legislation the government rubberstamped on bankruptcy. If you get sick (and don't have insurance) you're screwed. If you get sick and you do have insurance you're screwed. If you lose your job you're screwed. If you get divorced, you're screwed. Yet another bad law passed by this administration.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 11 2006, 07:24 AM) [snapback]347386[/snapback]</div>

No, he wasn't. No, they weren't.

50+1 doesn't make Bush my representative. Nor does a Republican senate or House. There were plenty of outcrys against the actions of this administration and they were totally ignored. There was no consensus, bipartisanship or working together. It was totally 'my way or the highway' and pushed through with pressure, threats and namecalling.

None of those guys looked at approval ratings when they made their decisions. None of them considered polls. They looked at their war chests and their greeting card lists.

Bottom line...that kind of logic made every German citizen a Nazi and accountable to the war crimes of a few.

Sorry, not buying it. Try again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 11 2006, 04:24 AM) [snapback]347386[/snapback]</div>

So why did all those German leaders get swept up by us after WWII? Hitler was elected, wasn't he? How could Himmler and Göring be at fault? A handful of Japanese were also illegally punished after the war too, don't you think?

Or maybe, (and I'm open to opinion here,) last Tuesday's election in our "democrocy" [sic] was a resounding cry that we, as civilized human beings, couldn't tolerate these wolves in sheep's clothing that represented us so poorly. Bush got votes by promising to be "compassionate."

I have to start a new paragraph here because I can't morally use that word and the name "Rumsfeld" in the same one.

For a little depth on the subject, read "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust"
by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen

BTW, in case you didn't know it, Condi hates Rumsfeld.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Nov 11 2006, 12:39 PM) [snapback]347510[/snapback]</div>

To my memory many of them are warmed-over criminals from Iran-Contra, these are not harmless men caught in a bad situation. If to commit a felony is to be a felon, these guys are repeat offenders who should face an international court. Perhaps a of coalition the willing as jury. I wonder if such a jury would have more international diversity than junior's war coalition.

...And that's just the repubs. Let's see what the dems dish up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Nov 11 2006, 11:39 AM) [snapback]347510[/snapback]</div>

While I support CCR and their lawsuit 100%, it remains to be seen whether Rummy will actually be put on trial. And if past experience is any predictor, Bush and Cheney will never be. The only time national leaders have ever been put on trial is when their country has been defeated in war, and they've been captured.

The Democrats will not want to set a precident that could be used against them later. Remember they have as bad a record as the Republicans when it comes to illegal wars.

Now if it turns out that W. was getting some nookie on the side, we could see some serious investigations.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 11 2006, 04:51 PM) [snapback]347560[/snapback]</div>

:lol:
But that would require an Independent Counsel...and unlike Clinton's big mistake of not vetoing that reauthorization in '94, I feel certain Rove would tell Dubya to veto a reauth of the position now. He'd be crazy not to...