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Sad, but oh so true!

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by FloridaWen, May 15, 2007.

  1. FloridaWen

    FloridaWen New Member

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    Sad, but oh so true!

    I certainly love America but here's something to think about:
    Ford Motor Company has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

    Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.

    The last quarter's results:
    Toyota makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

    Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

    IF THIS WASN'T SO SAD IT MIGHT BE FUNNY!
    :blink:
     
  2. Prius The First

    Prius The First New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 15 2007, 04:43 AM) [snapback]442293[/snapback]</div>
    All sad and all true. Ford, Chrysler and GM have done this to themselves. Build the cars that people want with the quality they expect. Hopefully they will be able to turn it all around. Kind of like turning the Titanic around before it hit the iceberg...........
     
  3. FloridaWen

    FloridaWen New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prius The First @ May 15 2007, 08:40 AM) [snapback]442322[/snapback]</div>
    Does anyone remember that movie (documentary) in the 70's by Michael Moore called "ROGER AND ME" ??
    It was all about GM moving OUT of Michigan and other USA locations and "opening production shops" in Brazil, Mexico, etc. It showed all the "domino effect" this had on all the people it laid off as well as the area businesses. Detroit turned in (NO disrespect intended) a "slum" filled with unemployment and drug-use, etc. Saginaw and Lansing (made transmissions) were hurtin' too. Now I am NOT from Michigan so I may have not got all the facts correct, but I was a "teenage gearhead" the time that movie came out, with my '69 RoadRunner and it shocked the Hell out of me to see USA Corporations treat human beings the way they did.............. :angry:
     
  4. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 15 2007, 06:43 AM) [snapback]442293[/snapback]</div>
    Unions baby - Unions - watch Cerebrus bust em upside their head now. Amazing, MB buys Chyrsler for $36 BILLION and ends up paying Cerebrus to take it off their hands - while retaining a 20% stake - why the 20% stake -- because MB believes now that Chrysler is privately owned they [Cerebrus] will be able to do what MB was not able to do - bust the unions. Gotta love it.

    Ford and GM will benefit BIG TIME from this too as uncion concessions at Chrysler will trickle down to them. There is little doubt in my mind that both GM and Ford are playing the same game MB did with Chrysler - they are using their balance sheets as a weapon and see NO use for improving their product line at all until they fix their LARGEST PROBLEM - the unions.
     
  5. daronspicher

    daronspicher Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2007, 07:59 AM) [snapback]442330[/snapback]</div>
    The Unions were my first thought too. They are too heavy for the American automakers. A couple things I'm not sure of, maybe someone can chime in...

    Do the US Toyota factories have the unions and similar union compensation packages that the Big 3 have?

    The cost of medical benefits the big 3 have to support is huge. I'm sure the Toyota plants in the US have this problem also, but cars made in some other parts of the world don't have to support near the cost of medical that cars built here have to overcome.

    We're not willing to pay what it costs to make a halfassed built grand caravan minivan. $5000 of it is medical insurance an union weight.
     
  6. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prius The First @ May 15 2007, 08:40 AM) [snapback]442322[/snapback]</div>
    More like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Tom
     
  7. mpgFanatic

    mpgFanatic New Member

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    If you want to know the truth, do a Google on automotive industry legacy costs.

    You will quickly learn that Toyota's legacy costs are $100 per car sold, whereas GM's is $1360. Legacy costs are, quite simply, years and years of accumulated retirement and medical insurance costs that were agreed upon by the unions and manufacturers. You can blame whoever you like but nothing will change the facts. Nor is possible for a manufacturer to change course and make it all better.
     
  8. Marlin

    Marlin New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ May 15 2007, 09:20 AM) [snapback]442344[/snapback]</div>
    GM has 2.5 retirees for each of it's 324,000 active employees. That's 810,000 retired union workers to which GM pays a pension and health insurance. This amounts to about $2000 per car.

    Toyota and others built their factories in the South, and are without unions. They pay their workers less (althought not too much less), but their workforce is younger resulting in lower benefit costs, and they have few retired workers.
     
  9. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ May 15 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]442463[/snapback]</div>
    Actually I read the non-union Toyota workers made more than their Union counterparts.
     
  10. subarutoo

    subarutoo New Member

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    Yesterday's LA Daily News paper had Dodge 4 door Ram pickups discounted $10,000 (!) off sticker. If it costs so much in union fees, etc. to build a car, how can they discount it $10K or about 30% off sticker and stay alive? $10000 used to get you a whole truck ! Not to beat a dead horse, but if US built cars the world wanted, not just big-nice person pickups and SUVs, there would be some global market, i.e. global profits. I know the US companies can build more rational cars for whatever foreign market they compete in, but here in the good old USA, they still build cars and trucks that are not appropriate for these times, and the Japanese are eating their lunch. I have a hard time feeling sorry for them, but for the US workers it sucks. Being human means being adaptable, as a consumer, as well as a worker. If the Toyota are US built, and the US brand factories are closing, it is time to either work for the Japanese, or re-structure the US brand companies to compete, even if it means fewer, but better, more efficient cars. In this day and age, no job is "for life". Why should autoworkers be any different?

    I am nearing retirement age, and have no pension benefit plan. Did autoworkers work any harder for the past 35 years than I did? I don't understand how they deserve the pensions, and the high hourly pay and benefits that has become such an albatross around the factories neck. It is the unions that have strangled the US car companies, and the companys' lack of foresight and innovation in model choices that sealed the deal.
     
  11. anj48

    anj48 New Member

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    Two issues ...

    1. Union contracts are signed by both parties. If management signs a contract that ends up sinking the company that's bad management.

    2. Large corporations scarcely have "nationalities" anymore. Look at Halliburton moving their HQ to the middle east. These companies build factories and hire workers wherever in the world they believe it is in their best interest to do so. I don't take the national origin of a product into account when making purchases, only the product itself and its suitability to my needs.
     
  12. dmckinstry

    dmckinstry New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 15 2007, 05:55 AM) [snapback]442326[/snapback]</div>
    Gad! Was it really that long ago? I would have sworn it much more recent than that. I guess that tells me I'm getting old.

    Dave M.
     
  13. FloridaWen

    FloridaWen New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ May 15 2007, 05:42 PM) [snapback]442753[/snapback]</div>
    No Dave you are NOT getting OLD..... I screwed up...... it was actually released December 1989. I don't know what made ME think it was in the 70's...............

    ROGER AND ME is a feature-length documentary film chronicling the efforts of the world's largest corporation, General Motors, as it turns its hometown of Flint, Michigan, into a ghost town. In his quest to discover why GM would want to do such a thing, filmmaker Michael Moore, a Flint native, attempts to meet the chairman, Roger Smith, and invite him out for a few beers up in Flint to "talk things over". In between his efforts to see Smith, Moore, the son of a Flint autoworker, takes us on a bizarre journey through Flint accompanied along the way by Ronald Reagan, Miss America, Pat Boone, Bob "Newlywed Game" Eubanks, and TV evangelist Robert Schuller--all of whom show up to save Flint from destruction.
    But, like a modern-day version of the "Grapes of Wrath," the situation seems hopeless--and the scenes from Flint are startling:
    --20,000 people standing in line at one location to collect federal surplus cheese and butter;
    --Large sections of the city filled with abandoned homes and boarded up stores, looking more like a war zone than an American town;
    --28,000 people who have lost their homes and their life savings and have packed up and headed south in search of work;
    --The social cost of 25% unemployment: record rates of suicide, spousal abuse, alcoholism, and, surpassing Miami and Detroit as the city with the highest rate of violent crime.
    These are a few of the results of General Motors laying off 40,000 people in Flint in the past nine years. It is expected that GM will eliminate another 10,000 Flint jobs in the next few years. 50% of Flint's GM workforce will have been abolished by 1989, an event of unprecedented proportion in American history.

    Yet, since 1983, car sales have steadily risen and GM has posted record profits of nearly $19 billion. So why lay off all of these people? Moore points out that he and his friends were raised on the American Dream which promised that if you worked hard and the company prospered, you would too. Now, it seems, GM has changed the rules: you work hard, the company prospers--and you lose your job.

    The film shows that GM has used these profits not to create jobs, but to buy data processing companies (EDS) and weapons manufacturers (Hughes Aircraft), automate their current assembly lines, and build new plants in Mexico and Asia. In addition, GM has bought a controlling interest in Isuzu, entered into a joint operating agreeement with Toyota, and has become the second largest mortgage holder in the United States. Flint, Michigan, it seems, is no longer part of the GM plan.

    In the midst of this rapidly crumbling city, the town leaders have gone a little crazy. They quickly devise a series of desperate schemes that seem more like a Marx Brothers movie than serious urban planning:

    --The mayor of Flint pays TV evangelist Robert Schuller $30,000 to come to Flint and hold a giant revival meeting, complete with live television coverage, to "heal" the city of its unemployment plague.
    --The city, along with the Flint-based Mott Foundation, spends $100 million to build an amusement park tribute "to the glory and wonderment of the automobile" called "AutoWorld"--the world's largest indoor theme park. Over one million tourists a year are expected to visit Flint and AutoWorld. Few toursits show up and AutoWorld closes in six months.
    --The city of Flint spends $13 million in tax funds to build a luxury Hyatt Regency hotel in downtown Flint, expecting to draw major conventions to the city. The place goes bankrupt in the first five years.
    --The Flint Chamber of Commerce, spurred on by a survey that shows that 45% of Flint's residents say they would move out of Flint immediately if they could, installs a number of large billboards around the city to "help improve the citizens' self concept" (the signs read: "Tough Times Don't Last--Tough People Do!" "Flint--It Means So Much To Be Here" and "Visit Flint--And Leave the Real World Behind!").
    --The city health department holds a press conference and announces that the rat population in Flint has surpassed the human census. The department blames it on the fact that the city can only afford to pick up the garbage twice a month and offers a bounty for every dead rat brought in by a city resident.
    --A group of laid-off auto workers show up at the GM annual board of directors meeting with a Brinks truck and demand that GM return the millions of dollars in tax breaks it has received for promising to create new jobs.

    All the while, the filmmaker, Michael Moore, has been trying to see Roger Smith. He arrives at GM world headquarters in Detroit and is immediately escorted out of the building. He then shows up at the GM board meeting and is removed from the audience's podium. He attempts to track down Roger's estate in Bloomfield Hills, but to no avail. From the Yacht Club to the Golf Club to the Hunt Club, Moore takes us on a tour of the havens of the rich and powerful in his seemingly futile, but finally succesful, attempt to talk to Roger Smith.

    ROGER AND ME is both a dark comedy and a compelling indictment of an American Dream gone awry.
     
  14. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    I'm no fan of Michael Moore, but "Roger and Me" is brilliant! GM was the most profitable corporation in America at the time of the movie (believe it or not), but they chose to lay off 30,000 workers to move production to Mexico where they could pay workers 70 cents an hour.

    The end result was that the GM factory city of Flint, MI aquired the nation's highest unemployment rate and the nation's highest violent crime rate to go along with it. The layoffs devestated thousands of families and essentially ruined a whole city in the name of higher profits. Ironically, while GM cut the cost of labor by moving production to Mexican sweatshops, GM CEO Roger Smith gave himself a multi-million dollar pay raise.

    "Roger and Me" portrays a textbook example of American greed and, as far as I'm concerned, GM's current troubles can be attributed more to God's judgement than unions (though the decision to pump out primarily large SUVs in the face rising gas prices may have contributed to the present decline in sales, as well). :D
     
  15. onlynark

    onlynark Member

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    I dont get it though. Can someone explain this to me. I thought the top selling vehicles were the big 3 trucks and SUVs. Plus, the profit on trucks and SUVs tend to be higher than cars. So how come they are loosing so much money?
     
  16. FloridaWen

    FloridaWen New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boulder Bum @ May 16 2007, 12:22 AM) [snapback]443052[/snapback]</div>
    The very, very sad part of this all is when GM (and the other big 2) in the late 70's had the chance to build a "small car" that was "quality" and NOT "junk & cheap", we all remember the Chevy Vega, they just put out small "crap" cars that were terrible in crash tests and actually "disposable" in just a few years. They kept their "bells & whistles" fully-equipped, "well built" (and I use this term loosely) technology to the LARGE, gas guzzling vehicles. When the MiniVan era died and the SUV came into the spotlight, GM was pumping out big Surburbans, Tahoes, etc. and the Hell with the "fuel-efficient", small vehicles !! Now, on the other hand during this same time TOYOTA did make some roomy, medium sized SUV's but it also produced the MAJORITY of fuel-efficient, small, but quality built, safe and nicely equipped vehicles at an affordable price to the consumer. :D
     
  17. anj48

    anj48 New Member

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    Note: I heard on a radio talk show that Moore was actually given two interviews with Roger Smith but chose not to include them in the movie.
     
  18. FloridaWen

    FloridaWen New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(anj48 @ May 16 2007, 11:00 AM) [snapback]443328[/snapback]</div>
    Hmmmm....... something we will never really know the truth about I guess ??

    I am 54 years old and the late 60's early 70's were MY "gearhead" days.......... by 1973 I had seen too many one and two year old Chevy's rust and rot (Connecticut) with the back windows almost falling out.... truthfully my Father had a '73 Impala (w/ 12K-12 month warranty) !! I decided to invest in a brand new '73 VOLVO 142EA at (brand new w/3 yr.-36K warranty STANDARD !!) $3,800 !! Way ahead of it's time for body strength, even fuel injection. Those were the days that people actually "protested" that I was driving a "foreign car" !! Really !! Worked in a real "All-American" factory in Milford, CT and in the third week I had that nice vehicle some "loyal American" keyed the Volvo ALL AROUND !! Walked around it TWICE !! Guess he (or she) wanted to teach me a lesson to BUY AMERICAN ?? After that I bought Honda's and Acura's and my present Wife (we didn't meet yet back then) was buying Toyota's ;) .... SHE was way ahead of others with their big, 6,000+ lb. Caddy's and Lincolns !! So where did these oversized, gas guzzling, SUV's come from ???? More importantly, where are they going NOW with gas at over $3.25 per gallon ????
     
  19. Texas911

    Texas911 Member

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    Blame it on the UAW. That's right the antiquated labor unions. Toyota and Honda factories don't have labor unions so their more profitable.

    BTW we dont' need unions. There are ample ample safegaurds for the modern worker. OSHA, EPA, sue happy lawyers....

    Thank God Texas is not a union heavy state.



    BTW: Regarding Roger and Me...Did you see the part where the laid off UAW workers got job trained for other work and refused to do it because it was too hard for them. This was at a McDonalds! Just shows you how complacent and lazy people get when there is 100% job security. Ask Russia about that.
     
  20. FloridaWen

    FloridaWen New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Texas911 @ May 16 2007, 12:23 PM) [snapback]443416[/snapback]</div>
    I was born and lived 48 years in CONNECTICUT.... talk about "Unions"...............

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Texas911 @ May 16 2007, 12:23 PM) [snapback]443416[/snapback]</div>
    I am psyched now about seeing that crazy movie again.......... gotta rent it via Blockbuster ONLINE, doubt they will have that oldie in any local BB store...............