SAE agrees on J1772 Standard Charging Plug for PHEVs and EVs

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by walter Lee, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

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    The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has announced a single multi use electric car recharging plug standard design, the J1772 [1].The J1772 standard is designed to be safely used in all weather conditions and is controlled by the car. The J1772 uses the same plug for either fast (110v) or slow (240v) recharging (level 1 or 2). It allows for either AC or DC current charging. The (level 3) high voltage plug design for recharging, CHAdeMO, was not approved.[2].

    [1]
    SAE International -- mobility engineering
    SAE J1772 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    [2]
    CHAdeMO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    New Electric Car Charging Standard Isolates Japanese Makers | Benzinga
    Present Application and Future Possibilities of Quick Charger for Electric Vehicle
     
  2. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    FWIW, SAE J1772 combo plug aka Frankenplug has not been well received by those w/Nissan Leafs which have an optional CHAdeMO plug.

    Per http://www.chademo.com/, there are 1659 CHAdeMO stations worldwide. The Nissan Leaf is the most widely deployed street-legal BEV w/over 38K sold and more than 14K in the US, most of which have a CHAdeMO port (it is standard on all '12 Leaf SL's while it was optional on the '11 Leaf SL.)

    See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=183351#p183351 for an example for how this plug is viewed. It didn't help that GM's Blach from http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging said during a hearing "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward."

    In looking at the plug, it looks like J1772 stations that support the two extra pins (see pic at My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - SAE Officially Approves New Fast-Charging Combo) will need to provide two heads: one with and one w/o the section for the 2 extra pins as some the large connector will not physically fit some existing J1772 BEVs and PHEVs, including the Chevy Volt (from what I can tell at http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car/exterior-pictures.html).

    From http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=200825#p200825, it doesn't seem like there are many serious EV/PHEV players (backers of combo plug) who actually plan to ship any such vehicles in quantity in the near future, let alone w/combination plug. From My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - SAE combo plug/Frankenplug EV/PHEV car list, it seems like there's been no real change in status from those "players" from May '12 until now.

    If you look at the plug-in car sales figures from September 2012 Dashboard | Hybrid Cars:
    Which have those have CHAdeMO as optional or standard? Leaf and Mitsubishi i.
    SAE Frankenplug? None.
    Some other DC fast charging standard? None.

    Not on the list would be Tesla's own Supercharging "standard" w/however many Model S cars they've shipped so far.

    My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - CHAdeMO QC count: 1659. Japan 1344 Europe 229 Other 86 NA 78 has a count of QC station types.
     
  3. astrand

    astrand PHEV Guru

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    It is true that there are relatively many Chademo stations and vehicles out there, if you look at the current market. However, if you have a longer perspective, 38K vehicles is nothing. The combo plug might be ugly, but the fact that it supports both 1 and 3 phase AC in addition to DC fast charge is a very big advantage, if you ask me.
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Not having a 'dog in that fight', I have not followed the technology closely but I have a couple of questions:
    1. Are the shell grounds just safety or a common current return? The reason I ask is I've been impressed with the effects of common-mode current in power and signal circuits. The symmetrical connectors in CHAdeMO suggests current return is within the shell but the asymmetrical J1772 isn't clear.
    2. Wiki suggests the standard calls for 80A but the existing Yazaki plug is rated only to 30A . . . so what is the current practice? It is not easy to make a 30A connector run at 80A and I didn't see any discussion of a plug-level, thermistor to detect heat, the early indicator of a worn connector.
    I find the design goal of station-based, power rectification more credible than trying to have the vehicle handle high-power, AC-to-DC rectification. Even with synchronous rectification, adding a heat load to the vehicle is esthetically a bad idea.

    A cursory look at the Wiki description of J1772 signaling suggests switching resistances are key to vehicle signaling. This looks too much like the madness of USB power 'standards' which leads two identical connector USB cables to have entirely different modes NOT indicated by any external markings on the cable. For example, Garmin GPS cables that either try to either mount as a disk image or charge the battery. I am not a fan of resistance-based signaling.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    This is a minor issue, and one that shouldn't prevent the adoption of a better standard. Like Bob, I don't have a dog involved, it would appear to me that the frankenplug way of incorporating the existing plug structure would mean lower costs going forward. As opposed to the two seperate outlets and plugs required on the car and chargers with Chamdeo.
    For the pre-standard cars, won't it just be easier to offer them an adapter if the new plug won't fit? Isn't that what Tesla is doing for Supercharger cars? Or break franken plug into two. Have the two pins on a seperate line that snaps onto the larger plug handle when needed. Less than ideal long term, but it can be phased out like vapor capture on gasoline pumps as the fleet of older cars drops.
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Getting a standard out there, that is workable is good progress. Lack of standards slows infrastructure. Bad standards mean infrastruture would need to be replace. This appears to be a good, but not ideal standard.

    There are 2 major advantages over the Japanese standard.
    1) Its more idiot proof with a single door on the car and socket. This lowers cost from manufacturers. The cars also use the same communication protocol simplifying electronics in the cars, and the SAE communication protocol is better than the Japanese standard.

    2) Higher power application will allow faster charging. The Japanese were only targetting city cars, but this standard allows much more power if the car can handle it.
    Tesla should be able to easily put an adapter into the car. Nisan will need to work a little harder as the adapter needs to hit the L2 charger for communication. Mitsubishi that has the charger on two different doors might not easily be able to overcome communication or might need an expensive electronic adapter to translate between the protocols.
     
  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The charger determines the power, and the connector on that charger gets built for its current. If its only L2 it can use lower amperage. The L3 portion is where the higher voltage and current exist.

    L2 is about low cost chargers. These seem to be standardized on 6.6kw (focus, leaf) and 10 kw (tesla). This rectifies in the car. The L3 higher powered chargers move this to the charger. The rectifier in the tesla is set so you can just plug into an outlet in a trailer park and charge:)

    The communication signaling should work fine. The L3 pins are different than the L2 pins for power.

    This shows some of the communication. It is the same for L1, L2, and the new L3 and resistance is used.

    J1772Basics - open-evse - The Basics of the J1772 pilot protocol - Open Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) - Google Project Hosting
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I was addressing cwerdna's point about how some cars with the current level 2 outlet couldn't use a franken plug charger for slower charging bcause the extra pins on the plug would prevent it from physically plugging into the car. He mentioned it as a con that the station would need two plugs to accommodate these cars. I was asking if an adopter, like those old 3 prong to 2 ones, would simply work, or if breaking the new plug up into two for the short term would work.

    Those with the competing standard are in a tough position. Tesla knew supercharger was going to be theirs alone. I'm pretty sure they already planned to provide an adapter once SAE settled on a standard.

    I don't think Mitsubishi really cares. They're like Bob and me. They'll just keep offering Chademo in Japan and other regions that have adopted it. In the US and elsewhere, the franken plug. Mitsu probably prefers it over Chademo in the iMiEV because it doesn't mean finding another spot for a plug. The few Chademo cars they sold here, probably won't see an adapter.

    Chademo is Nissan's baby, and they have a lot invested in it. Another blow on top of low Leaf sales.
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The L2 SAE plugs will still work on the new socket, its simply a socket extension. If you want L3 you need the franken plug though. I am unsure if a frankenplug will be able to do L2 on an L2 socket though. Tesla currently uses an adapter for L2, and can make one for L3 rather easily. All the safety of the 3 pronged outlet was already incorporated in in L2, only the bottom 2pins have been added.

    IMHO if the standard was available when tesla designed the S, they would have used it. The Chademo provided much less power than Tesla supercharger and they didn't want to be caught with that charger performance. Frankenplug's L3 connection solves this problem.

    Yep, when Tepco stopped leadership because of their power plant problems, Nissan spearheaded this.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I don't see a technical reason for fpL3 plugs to do L2 on a L2 socket in terms of power flow. The car and chargers are communicating together no matter the plug type. The issue seems to be some L2 car sockets won't accept the fpL3 physically.

    Of course, I'm thinking one plug for all no matter the charge level is a great idea going forward. But if the L3 charger can't charge at L2, you don't want people plugging in their L2 car and walking away thinking their car is charging.

    But then you couldn't charge it at an RV park.:)
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    1st - are you presuming Frankenplug/SAE is better? If your multifunction FAX, printer, scanner, phone goes into the shop, don't you loose the function of all? If you only have ONE bad car charge port ... at least you can still get by. I'm just saying, there are advantages/disadvantages for both Chademo versus SAE.​
    2nd - why was there such a rush to push the SAE plug into existence - with NO cars even being considered for sale?​
    3rd - Chademo membership is NOT cheap. Bring another format on line, and other manufacturers don't have to pay.​
    4th - "Pre-standard" is an illusory thing. Nissan used to say the Gen I Leaf could upgrade to a 6kW charger ... now they say no. You can't enforce an illusory promise ... one where the promissor says "we're working on it.​
    But . . . Chademo continues to grow . . . . over 3,100 chargers world wide, and the number grows daily ... as well as the number of manufacturing companies that make 'em. the Chademo safety record is great and has some history, too.​
    5th - GM: The PR/spin machine of GM has 'always' been able to spin a benign motive for their agenda. "Plug-in's? ... Folks want SUV's ... and no, there was NO waiting list for the EV1 ... Prius is a geekmobile" .... " So ... why DID the good folks GM corporate push for a new format ... there MUST be a real GM reason. Even GM has no dog in the fight. Isn't that strange? Not if you want to actually KILL quick charge infrastructure in its infancy. Then, and only then does it really make sense. Sure, there are others on board w/ frankenplug protocol ... but the simple idea of not having to pony up for Chademo membership (appx $6,300 year - just to tinker with the protocol) - well that makes it a "Thumbs-up" for manufacturers considering frankenplug, it becomes a no-brainer. Already there are businesses that refuse to install Chademo simply because they understand it's important to wait to find out what the standard will become.​
    Thanks GM ... it's just like when they were killing off Electric trolley cars 60 years ago, just so GM could sell its buses for public transportation - so that they can make more money, at the expense of the public.​
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It would allow a car to select L2 charging if it does not have L3 hardware. The charger provides the power that the user selects.
     
  13. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    To me, a Frankenplug station that offered L2 and DC fast charging would need to offer two heads: either one plug w/all of the pins (extras included) and another without (regular J1772) OR regular J1772 + extra 2 pins on a separate connector.

    As for other regions that have adopted CHAdeMO, it sure exists in the US and Europe. These guys used it: Video: Dutch duo drives Nissan Leaf 779.2 miles in... 24 hours. Tony Williams used a bunch in OR and WA (and a few in CA) to do this trip: My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Mexico to Canada via Electric Highway June 12-20, 2012. There are FINALLY a few more of these in the SF Bay Area (I can think of 3 OTOH: one at Stanford Mall and another at VW's research facility in Belmont, CA).

    Also from My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner

    In response to hill, yep, it seems like the intent of GM (esp. from the hearing that I cited) and others is to try to stall or kill CHAdeMO, even though the Frankenplug players don't seem to have any skin in the game (aka no serious BEV efforts). Again see My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - SAE combo plug/Frankenplug EV/PHEV car list.

    To quote from My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Agreement on Charging Standards? 2011 when this was in the works:

    And to quote from My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US (which I cited earlier):
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Yes, frankenplug includes the L2 plug + 2 extra high power pins in a single charger plug and receptical on the car. Communication on the plug tells the charger the car is plugged in, and allows the user to select from available options on the charger. Cars with just L2 can provide space for frankenplug, and everything should work fine from a hardware point of view. There will be continued L2 only plugs that fit frankenplug sockets.


    There are about a total of 100 chedemo chargers in the works in the US, mainly in California, but some are in texas and illonois. I would expect frankenplug to win out over this, as it will be incorporated in future cars.
     
  15. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    I'd say that many are in OR and WA. There aren't that many in CA. There are a whole bunch in TN, where Nissan moved their US HQ to. There are a few in AZ, one was used to help w/Tony Williams' range test.

    My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - CHAdeMO QC count: 1659. Japan 1344 Europe 229 Other 86 NA 78 and My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - CHAdeMO QC count: 1659. Japan 1344 Europe 229 Other 86 NA 78 has a few counts.

    With DaveinOlyWA reporting 20 in OR, there's no way there are 20 yet in the whole state of CA.

    Unfortunately, there's no one complete database, but from Alternative Fuels Data Center: Alternative Fueling Station Locator, if I put in California, Electric and select include DC fast, I get 5. For these states, I get these numbers:
    Oregon: 23
    Washington: 13
    Tennessee: 13
    Arizona: 4
    Texas: 0
    Illinois: 17 (interesting)

    As for Frankenplug winning, ok, which automakers have a serious EV program and will be incorporating Frankenplug? Please list the make, model, availability date and whether combo plug is optional or standard. Feel free to add your info to My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - SAE combo plug/Frankenplug EV/PHEV car list.
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    When I hit the evgo website, I get 25 freedom station locations in texas. These are the chargers installed by NRG, that all include chademo. When I hit google maps street view, on a station that I didn't think was there in Oregon, there was no station just parking spots, but it could have gone in since that google map picture was taken. Bottom line I don't trust that graphic for oregon, and I know it is wrong in texas. I hope the 200 freedom stations planned for california can also include frankenplug, and carry the higher charging capacity. Any idea of what utilization is per month on one of those oregon stations?

    I would expect all major manufacturers that produce a car with a L3 charger to include frankenplug in the future. I'm sure tesla will have an adapter fast available for its users. For PHEVs, the L2 standard goes up to 19.2 kw, and likely they don't need more than the fairly inexpensive 6.6kw hardware. For a car like a tesla S, the 100 kw of frankenplug makes sense, over the slower 62.5 kw chademo. Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen are the vehicle companies that wanted frankenplug. Very few cars and chargers are available in the US. The time to put out a better standard is now. The added safety features, better communication, compatability with smart grid are all reasons not to just adopt the japanese model. I'm sure Nissan can pay companies that are installing frankenplug to add a chademo plug to the charger, but no reason to continue the Nissan corporate plug for everyone. I expect 200 mile range cars and higher power is helpful.

    SAE DC Fast Charging standard to reduce electric cars charging time to 1/2 hour
     
  17. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    No idea about the utilization. What are these added safety features and "better communication"?

    As for compatibility with smart grid, Nissan already has NISSAN | Nissan and Nichicon to Launch the "LEAF to Home" Power Supply System With "EV Power Station" that works over CHAdeMO.

    As for all those companies you list, none of them seem serious about BEVs or PHEVs, let alone utilizing DC fast charging, esp. Porsche. Where are their EVs? How many do they project to sell and by what time frame? Will they have Frankenplug standard?

    Of the bunch, BMW seems the most serious, but even their plans are uncertain. And, given how few vehicles BMW sells in the US (September 2012: A Return To Normalcy Edition), it seems unlikely they'll sell many BEVs.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    1st- I don't presume it is better, not knowing all the details. But I find the single plug solution elegant, and being able to supply more power than the Chademo gives future BEVs longer legs with our wider spaces.
    2nd- If the standard had been settled sooner, L2 only plug ins on the road now could have been built with outlets a fpL3 could physically plug into. It wasn't, so now we have to address how these cars will work with new chargers. An adapter, multiple or modifible plugs at the charger, or upgrading the outlet on the car.
    3rd- That was Nissan's choice to charge that much. It was high enough that it drove others to find another way. That's basically the driving force behind Atkinson's work, and why we have a more efficient 4 cycle ICE option for hybrids today.
    4th- That's a risk for early adoption. Chademo grows because there wasn't another standard out. I believe Nissan may even have lowered their rates for it.
    5th- Corporations are greedy, soulless entities. For the most part they all behave the same way. Nissan didn't have to charge for Chademo. Neither did Toyota for their hybrid system. Volvo opened their 3-point seat belt patent for free. But most elect to make a buck over getting the best solutions for society out there.
     
  19. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The extra safety and better communication is because of green phy which is a better protocol than canbus. No voltage is on the charging pins until the car says it wants it, this is part of the J1772 L2 protocol also.
    Electric car fast charging feud between SAE and CHADEMO, who will win?




    I don't think the car has any control with that box. You car programing your charger to operate on the smart grid, the car apps can't interact. Does that even work with the smart grid system my utility uses, or is it japanese only?

    Well certainly if the only company you care about is nissan, than the standard comittee doesn't matter. The state of california ordered 200 chademo. IMHO though, if plug ins are going to take off we should try to get the american and european autocompanies involved and not just accept what the japanese are doing. Remember the Japanese were only planning for short range bevs. I am somewhat disapointed the sae adopted 100kw (500Vx200A) as there max charge instead of the 240kw (600Vx400A) proposed, but that will make charging stations less expensive.

    Yes BEVs are slow adopting beasts. Frankenplug does also do level 1 DC which may make phevs less expensive. I do like green phy, single plug, and 100kw better than 2 plugs, 2 protocols, and 62.5kw.
     
  20. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Lest we forget, Toyota - one of THE largest auto manufacturers, if not THE largest automanufacture - IS a card carrying Chademo member (which is why some are P.O'd that the new rav4-EV has no QC port :mad: ) ... so it's not just a Nissan thing, even if one writes off Mitsu as a Chademo user, due to their very low EV sales numbers. I'm hearing rumors that GM may find some mutiny among the manufacturers they ganged together to prove how acceptable frankenplug is to the entire universe ... not that such a thing would ever make me smile. ;)
     
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