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sanctimonious: Feigning piety or righteousness:

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Tweev, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. ForTheGlory

    ForTheGlory New Member

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    Maybe I'm mistaken, but is population growth really an issue in the US right now? I read an article ~6 months ago that pointed out that the population of the US is acutally declining, while the rest of the world is growing quickly.

    Of course, overcrowding of the world in general is a huge problem. I just don't see it as an issue here.

     
  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    There are still lots of people using their 15mpg guzzlers as mobile amps ... just to power their sterios ... cruising, driving around, windows down, blasting away with their tunes. There are people still lots of people using their 15mpg guzzlers as mobile air conditioners, even as they sit in front of the air conditioned Wallmart, on a 95 degree day, too lazy to walk into the store.

    In other words, it's low on the list compared to what.
     
  3. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Population in the U.S. is growing, but as a result of immigration (legal and otherwise).

    Tom
     
  4. Tweev

    Tweev New Member

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    *I can see how you may think that I am referring to all Prius owners when I bring up (I admit) the inflammatory term 'sanctimony'. I certainly don't. I have just noticed that there are a number of individuals that seem to imply the owning a Prius is somehow a plus for the environment (Shell commercials do this as well) and it's totally bogus. My point is owning a Prius makes you such a little less negative that it's really a silly argument. Later this evening if I have time, I think it would be interesting to use some of the carbon foot print calculators and compare vegetarianism vs Prius vs mass transit. It would be interesting to see the numbers.

    * I agree. Prius chat is a great place to find how to reduce gas usage, buy Prius bling - I think that's great. It was the enviro-weiny back padding that I was finding a bit nausiating.

    * I agree. The Prius is a cool car similar to an iphone being a cool cell phone

    * Make a fund for a Masters student here:
    University of Windsor - EngineeringNEWS - Automotive Research

    * Points about fitness, biking etc. That's great. My point was things like that are much more effecitve at reducing dependence on foreign oil, slowing global warming that buying a Prius. You've pointed out that your purchase was based on techno-cool factor rather than enviornment. I couldn't agree more, that's really the reason to buy a Prius. My main thesis I suppose is buying a Prius for cost savings or reducing environmental impact is silly.

    * Me being sanctamonious. Not at all. I've repeatedly pointed to how I stuggle with the arbitrary level of hypocracy that I can live with. It's a bitter bill to swallow. I'm certainly not a level of environmental stewardship that hardcores should aspire too.

    * As for foreign oil. I'm Canadian, so we're a net exporter and I even frequently work in the oil sand because oil companies pay obscene amounts of money to scientist to document the amazing level of environmental distruction that is going on up there. Also, just so no one accuses me of Anti-america-isms (I really like Americans!) I live in San Diego 1/2 the year and think it's great! American environmental law is much better than Canadian. Canadian considering themselves environmental poster boys (many think this) is absolutely ridiculous.

    * Lastly, not is your post but in sheepdogs - what is all this talk about going to Iraq and attacking Iran being about freedom and safety?? 17 out of the 911 hijackers were Saudi's -- still good buddies to the good ol' US of A. That makes me sick. Iraq is a huge waste of lives and money.

     
  5. a priori

    a priori Canonus Curiosus

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    It just doesn't seem to matter whether I disagree with one or another of your points or positions -- I can't help but laugh when I read most of your posts. And I mean that in a good way!

    I think we could really enjoy a lunch together. Somehow, though, I think you'd toss me out if we were living in the same hut.

    The right to free speech is just that. I should not, and can not, be restricted except in cases where the time or the manner of the speech is so inappropriate as to cause harm or damage. The best example is the person who stands on a beach, watching a bonfire and yells "Fire, Fire!" He may be tiresome, but if it is a public beach it will be allowed until it becomes a disturbance of the peace. If he is doing it to make a public statement about the dangers of fires on beaches or about the loss of habitat from cutting down trees used for fueling the bonfire, then he will be allowed to rant, regardless of the objections to either his noise or the content of his speech.

    If the same person walks into a movie theater to make the same political speech, he is likely to be arrested once he starts yelling "Fire, Fire!" and no one will agree with his argument that his constitutional rights have been violated.

    By the way -- thank you for your service to me, to my family, to my friends and to my neighbors, regardless of whether I agree with their political, social or religious views.
     
  6. Sheepdog

    Sheepdog C'Mere Sheepie!

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    Mr Priori,

    I have no issue with you or your posts thus far. I don't mind at all we dont agree on a lot. If you are ever in Orlando I'd be happy to take you to a wonderful place of excess to dine! Texas Do Brasil on international drive. All you care to eat of multiple items and they dont stop giving it to you until you fall out!
     
  7. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    Wow. It's amazing how much posturing, chest-beating, and snorting is going on in this thread! :D
     
  8. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Actually that is paraphrasing his exact words in his 2005 book "Collapse". :)

    Please don't pigeonhole me into that category. I am no ascetic yet I do think that with our current and past level of thinking that many technologies do indeed create more problems than they fix regardless of their original intent.

    I agree with you on this which si why I didn't want you to stick me into some anti-technology category. I am simply stating that I do not feel technology will save us. Not unless we have a major paradigm shift first. ;)

    That was not meant to be taken literally my friend. I should have added the word "sometimes" at the beginning and it might have made more sense. Admittedly creation has made some things better, at least for now, but has it doomed up as a species in the future? The point is, we must be even more creative but in ways and in subjects that reduce our impacts and live within the laws of the natural environment instead of just increasing our capacity to do stuff.
     
  9. Ichabod

    Ichabod Artist In Residence

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    If you see that, then you probably saw it when starting a thread titled "Sanctimonious..." And that sounds a little like flame-baiting. But call it what you will.

    I didn't say that I bought it because it was cool. I did mention that I think it's cool, but I bought it specifically because it uses less gas and pollutes less than any comparable car I could have bought at the time. True fact!

    I'll give you the point on this one, and admit to being a little selfish; I wanted to invest my money in future development in a way that directly benefits me. I could have dropped a few G's on a grad student instead of buying a car, but I didn't. I do still feel that my consumer dollars do a lot to promote industry change though.

    Oh, so you are just calling us all stupid. Fair enough.

    If you're so admittedly hypocritical, then can't you admit sanctimony too? It's not much of a stretch... Aren't you feigning piety by pointing out other people's flaws, especially flaws that you share? And if you're not pointing to all of us as a group, then who are you talking to? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, eh?

    Or are you just saying, "don't bother trying because it makes you look pretentious?" Where do we start addressing some of these problems if we're not allowed to start, for fear of looking bad to you?

    What do you expect from a thread in FHOP... wait, this thread hasn't been moved to FHOP?!? ;)

    Anyway, this guy is just parroting, and has all but said "smug alert!" with the intent of ruffling feathers...
     
  10. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Here is some data from the following carbon footprint calculator. This is just comparative data, not things I have done.
    Carbon Footprint - Calculate, Reduce and Offset - Carbon Footprint Calculator

    Annual CO2 output reduction (converted from tonnes to tons):
    6.54 tons/yr: Switching from my LR Discovery to Prius @ 15,000 miles per year
    2.91 tons/yr: Switching from an average 22mpg car to Prius
    2.72 tons/yr: Switch from Prius to walk/bike
    1.95 tons/yr: Go to 100% solar PV at home
    1.81 tons/yr: 2 cross country flights per year vs. staying home
    1.52 tons/yr: Switch from Prius to Subway
    1.41 tons/yr: Walking, hiking, biking vs. going out to eat, bars, movies
    1.35 tons/yr: Switch from Prius to Intracity Rail
    1.24 tons/yr: Switch from Prius to Light Rail
    0.81 tons/yr: Switching from mixed red/white meat to vegetarian diet
    0.69 tons/yr: Switch from Prius to Bus
    0.54 tons/yr: Recycling/Composting vs. throwing everything in the trash
    0.51 tons/yr: Switching from grocery store to local produce
    0.40 tons/yr: Taking your money out of the banking system
    0.23 tons/yr: Focus on buying products w/ little to no packaging
    0.063 tons/yr: Buying in season produce
    0.057 tons/yr: Buying Organic

    I made buying a Prius a priority because my impression was that driving is the single dirtiest thing most of us do, at least from a GHG perspective. It appears that assumption was pretty correct. In the mean time I'm working on many of the others too, but the Prius seemed like a good start. Based on the above calculator, that alone took ~32% off my overall carbon footprint. The lifestyle changes I'm trying to make could cumulatively take off another ~21%. So overall I hope to be down ~53% versus last year.

    I say that not because I think I deserve a medal, but to highlight how substantial the impact of buying the Prius has been. Much more than eating less red meat, recycling, composting, reducing packaging consumption, and buying in season and local produce combined (even if I was able to do them all 100% which I'm probably not).

    I'd say your primary assumption was pretty much completely wrong.

    Rob
     
  11. Tweev

    Tweev New Member

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    I suppose accusing someone of sanctimony is a little sanctimonious and ironic at the same time. I wasn't putting myself on a higher level. More than once I pointed out my short comings. I think the technological optimism tangent was interesting.

    I'm pointing to the Prius owners who think that driving a Prius is some sort of environmental plus. In the grand scheme of things it's an insignificant contribution - akin to recycling your pop cans. When I have time tonight I'll do a hybrid vs vegetarian carbon foot print comparison - I'd like to know - maybe I'm wrong - It's happened before :)
     
  12. MagneticGrayIndy

    MagneticGrayIndy 06Prius;94M Miata;65Rambler770

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    Just a couple of repeated points... comparing the Prius to the FIT and/or YARIS is just flat out innacurate... two completely different classes of vehicle.. The Prius is absolutely more in line with a Camry or Accord.

    as far as impact being slight.. how many other cars can (complete EV's aside - and are NOT commerically available yet) can run off pure electric power or not run at all when in drive through.. stop light... parking lot... neighborhood.. etc.etc.etc..

    The environmental impact is GREAT. I agree I would never pay above MSRP for ANY vehicle.. but that's completely irrelevant to the issue of buying/not buying a Prius.
     
  13. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    BTW, according to Edmunds the Prius is going to save me about $35,000 over 5 years compared to the Land Rover. Not bad considering the Prius only cost me $15k.

    Rob
     
  14. Ichabod

    Ichabod Artist In Residence

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    The previous post has one such comparison... I don't know their sources (didn't follow the link to read up on it :rolleyes:) but I've heard very different "official sounding" estimates of what a veg diet can do for one's carbon footprint. My biased view is that the non-veg under-emphasize its potential impact so they can feel ok about eating more pigs and chickens and cows.

    Anyway, since I'm doing both of those things, I win!!! :D

    But I lose to Rae Vynn. :Cry:
     
  15. Tweev

    Tweev New Member

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    miscrms: WOW!!! I had no idea! I'm very, very surprised by the rather miniscule reduction in carbon footprint from the change from herbivory to vegetarianism -- just knowing about trophic transfer efficiency rates makes that pretty hard to believe.

    Hey, maybe I'm wrong but with the rough guideline of 10% transfer efficiency I don't see how that's possible. Best data we have right now though. Good one.

    This is getting interesting. I'd like to explore this further.

    Here's an interesting link:
    The Cheeseburger Footprint
    "the greenhouse gas emissions arising every year from the production and consumption of cheeseburgers is roughly the amount emitted by 6.5 million to 19.6 million SUVs."
     
  16. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Already did it on the previous page. For me the Prius was about 8 times more significant than switching to vegetarian, and about 6 times more than recycling and composting everything.

    Rob
     
  17. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Even if the numbers there are true (they may be, I know meat is a dirty business) the effect of 6.5-19.6 million SUVs is much less impressive than it sounds. Given that there are 250+ million vehicles on the road in the US, and the average FE is only 20mpg, its sadly a pretty miniscule impact. Switching everyone to Priuses would be like taking 141 million average 20mpg vehicles or 163 million 16mpg SUVs off the roads. An unlikely scenario, but probably more feasible than convincing everyone to stop eating cheeseburgers.

    Rob
     
  18. MagneticGrayIndy

    MagneticGrayIndy 06Prius;94M Miata;65Rambler770

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    tweev... again, no offense.. but if recyclying pop cans, etc is so insignificant.. why should we bother to care at all? In my mind, it all adds up and small steps and tiny changes do make BIG impacts.. Just think of how different your life is in ten years by saving small amounts of money in that time frame..
     
  19. subarutoo

    subarutoo New Member

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    Why do you waste electricity posting such drivel? If the car's not for you, its no big deal. There are people standing in line for them. Just get out of the way. My brother-in-law has a Yaris. Not even close. Less carring space, less comfort. Probably not as crash-worthy, and it only gets 28 mpg!!! (Just over 1/2 of what I get). I commute 450 miles a week, and I ride my bike whenever I can, but not 45 miles to work. Yeah, the Yaris costs less to buy, but I'd rather pay for a car I want, than settle for an inferior (for me) product just to save a few dollars at purchase. I live, therefore I have to drive, the mpgs, and somewhat fewer emissions than most cars, are a plus. You can have your soap box back.
     
  20. zenMachine

    zenMachine Just another Onionhead

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    We traded in our minivan for a Prius. Anyone who thinks that is not an environmental plus or has the arrogance to compare it to recycling pop cans is an idiot.