Featured Sandy Munro And Nikola

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by El Dobro, Dec 11, 2021.

  1. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    good thing for Cali that gassers haven't changed into EV's automatically overnight. Probably for the rest of the US as well. ;)
    Anything floating around the web on induction recently?

    Physics Tutorial: Charging by Induction

     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Tesla is not to only one making a BEV Semi. The others were mentioned earlier. Include smaller commercial trucks, and VW, Mercedes, and others get added to the list.

    A car is not just its fuel tank. A workable FCEV also adds the fuel cell and battery to the EV drive train of hydrogen tanks. This means the Mirai is heavier than a Model 3 by about 200 pounds. The model S that matches the Mirai's listed range is 200 to 300 pounds heavier than it, but it is also a bigger class of car. The Mirai's trunk is smaller than some subcompacts, and the rear middle passenger needs to straddle a floor hump like the one in the gen2 Volt.

    The range of Toyota's FCEV semi is the same as the Mirai's. Nikola's Tre BEV has a stated range of 350 miles. The curb weight of these tractors is very likely close to each other. Regulations limit their gross weight. Being heavier does mean lower cargo weight then, but not every truck is hauling ignots. Product bulk is the more limiting factor.

    BEV and FCEV ranges don't work for long haul truck

    On the subject of car weight, roads are designed for multi ton commercial trucks. The extra weight of a BEV or FCEV isn't going to budge the road budge. More surface wear could happen, but more rain can to the same. It's the freeze thaw cycles that chew up roads here. Talk of passenger vehicles doing more damage because of weight is political talk to justify unfairly charging those cars more.

    Bringing up ships is a strawman. No one has suggested using batteries for an ocean going vessel. There could be one or two BEV ships plying local routes. Ships will likely end up using ammonia or methanol in an engine or fuel cell. Those fuels can also work for trucks. Heck, we can make renewable, carbon neutral gasoline; Porsche will be starting to do so in Chile. Cost wise, such gas will have a per mile one in a hybrid Camry comparable to a Mirai using renewable hydrogen.

    There is several reasons why companies have started working on Li-ion recycling. We were using a good amount of lithium before the need of batteries. It is also why they are also working on batteries that don't use lithium. Floride-ion ones could have energy densities good enough for planes. There are already Al-air ones available to be range extenders to smaller packed Li-ion cars. A PHEV with 50 to 100 mile EV range, burning renewable gasoline would be wonderful.

    We have choices for greener vehicles. Hydrogen could work, but we also have a lot of uses for green hydrogen when it happens before putting it in cars.
    Some of the hydrogen stations in California produce the gas onsite. Imagine the electrical, and water, hook up they would need for a truck stop.

    Refined products are lighter density than the crude. One barrel of crude will yield 44 to 47 gallons of products. Depends on what you start with, and what you make.
     
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  3. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Thanks for QUOTING my post, Again. And narrowing down the issue to it depends, with no link to support your statement in any form whatsoever. Does this make any sense to you?
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    There are about 2 million class 8 trucks in the US, if the average gets 500 kwh, it would take 1000 GWh of batteries to electrify the fleet. Its important to use the right units but really I have no idea of battery size or percent of the fleet. The largest grid battery is 1.2 Gwh and is in California. In 2021 the top 15 battery manufacturers added about 200 GWH to make capacity 600 gwh. Battery Manufacturers are heavily invested and plan to have 3000 gwh/year capacity in 2030.

    If it takes 30 years to electrify the semi fleet that is only 33 Gwh of batteries needed per year for the first decade. It is a small user compared to normal bevs and phevs.
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Calm my friends. There are fundamental physics and reality techno-economics involved and NOBODY has a crystal ball. But over the LONG term, physics and math will win.

    Pick your poison.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  7. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    we're still in need of how much diesel can be obtained from a barrel of crude and it's pretty hard to guess unless there is a better source for the diesel numbers. Thanks for being polite and providing a link, now I understand where your estimate came from. Thanks
     
  8. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    The part of the puzzle that's missing is that typically BEV PHEV are not as big an investment as a rig. And in most cases BEV PHEV don't run anywere near the miles and or hours that a matriculated rig runs per day. Now add business practices of most larger trucking firms and the reported numbers are not necessarily anywhere near accurate. Just accurate enough to keep from being red flagged by DOT.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The distillate in that graph is mostly sold as diesel. Another EIA page says US refineries make 11 to 12 gallons of diesel per barrel.

    The number is going to vary. Crude petroleum is not a uniform material; its composition varies by source. The amount of straight gasoline, the product that can be simply distilled off the crude, varies with source. There is more in lighter crudes.

    Then refineries aren't hard set to make the same ratio of products. US refineries traditionally make more gasoline because that is what is mostly used here. With the current market, they are likely shifting to more diesel. Most of the refineries on the Gulf coast are fed with heavy crude, and making diesel might be cheaper than gasoline for them.
     
  10. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    maybe this will help with the statistical analysis
    snipped - In 2020, distillate fuel consumption by the U.S. transportation sector, which is essentially diesel fuel, was about 44.61 billion gallons (1.06 billion barrels), an average of about 122 million gallons per day /snipped
    source: Use of diesel - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: Freightliner eCascadia Production Model Debuts With 230-Mile Range

    The eCascadia debuted at the Advanced Clean Transportation Expo in Long Beach, California, earlier this week as an electric semi truck suited for short-haul routes that allow for depot-based charging. Ideal uses include last mile logistics, local and regional distribution, drayage and warehouse to warehouse applications.

    The Freightliner eCascadia is powered by the Detroit ePowertrain developed by Daimler-owned Detroit, offering 320 horsepower in single eAxle configuration and 470 horsepower in tandem eAxle guise, and three battery options offering a range of up to 230 miles (from the largest 440 kWh pack).

    The eAxle is an electric drivetrain component integrated with an electric motor, transmission and specialized electronics within a compact unit. Detroit's ePowertrain provides two eAxle designs including a dual motor with max torque of 23,000 pounds-feet and max power of 395 horsepower, and a single motor with a max torque of 11,500 lb-ft and max power of 195 hp.


    Bob Wilson
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It is economics and politics not physics or math that will choose the winner.

    Nationwide hydrogen for long haul trucking looks extremely unlikely given the huge costs over BEV, PHEV, LNGV, and regulated diesel. A physically smaller country like Japan may decide to pay to create it, but it is unlikely in the US, Europe, or China. Short Haul which is where BEV, Fuel Cell, and NGV are being experimented and we don't know. California is conducting an experiment on Ports of Long Beach and LA, and we will see how the trucks perform. These are heavily polluted cities so there is a strong political will.

    These things take time but operating costs of a class 8 diesel truck when including the driver(s) and maintenance are huge. Maintenance costs, Fuel costs should drop with bev short haul trucks and driver satisfaction will likely increase. It is short sited to think that simply because a technology is only a decade old that it is unreliable, motors and batteries are very old. They need to get the things in the field as freightliner has done, and last year its bev trucks went over a million miles. The industry is in the testing phase, but there is no reason to believe it will take a long time.

    Short haul is 250 miles or less on a route with most short haul trucking routes being local at less than 100 miles. It is easy to predict for a trucking company where it needs chargers on these routes (or hydrogen stations if it is doing hydrogen). On heavy port routes to distribution centers diesel semis create most of the unhealthy pollution. That is why it is definitely worth the money to experiment there.
     
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  13. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    agreed about the how short sited it is. Really short and possibly miss calculated. Wouldn't be the first time, would it? Greed is a mighty powerful component of the human conditions, all around, including but not limited to statistics and plan ole BS.
     
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