Save With Toyota's Prius? Buy Two Aveos

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by jkash, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. jkash

    jkash Member

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    My question to the author: Would you drive an Aveo?

    Save With Toyota's Prius? Buy Two Aveos

    Dismal Science?

    The economics of owning a Prius are worth reviewing.

    The vehicle, a modest four-door hatchback, gets an average of about 55 miles a gallon in city and highway driving. It will consume about $696 worth of fuel a year at today's average price of $2.55 a gallon. A Toyota Camry, averaging 28 miles per gallon, consumes about $1,366 worth of fuel a year.

    The $670 difference gasoline savings on the Prius over the Camry translates into almost a five-year payback on Prius's $3,000 price premium.

    Not too bad for those who are convinced that saving gasoline is a critical national priority.

    But if you're crunching numbers, a much better deal might be the conventionally powered Chevrolet Aveo.

    The Aveo averages about 30 miles a gallon and thus consumes about $1,275 a year worth of gasoline -- $579 more than the Prius and $91 less than the Camry. But at a purchase price of about $12,000 it represents a price savings of about $12,000 over the Camry and more over the Prius.

    The numbers are irrefutable, even if the future is less so: Hybrids are growing more popular and are destined to become a bigger segment of the vehicle market. Economies of scale eventually will help drive the cost of advanced technology down.

    And governments probably will keep soaking taxpayers for subsidies in the form of tax-credits. After all, we Americans do love our gadgets, and doubly so those that we hope can save the earth.

    Read more.
     
  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    The author fails to account for the fact that the Chevy will be nearly ready for the junk heap as it nears 75K miles ... where as that represents the 1/2 way point on my battery pack warranty. :lol:
     
  3. mrbogie

    mrbogie New Member

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    Good point Hill. And when you figure in the safety features, low emmisions and the fact it's just plain fun to drive, I'll take the Prius.
     
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Here's my exchange with the author:

    Dear Mr. Levin,
    I was pointed to your article, "Save With Toyota's Prius? Buy Two Aveos
    Instead" by a post on Priuschat.com and felt compelled to respond.

    Let me start off saying that overall I think the article was fair and
    relatively accurate...something inordinately rare in articles where the Prius is

    mentioned. Unfortunately the title is certainly misleading "Save With Toyota's
    Prius? Buy Two Aveos Instead". What it fails to say is that you can "save" a
    lot more by buying no car at all. Or if you must have a car that buying a
    used econobox will save you even more. What it fails to mention that "saving"
    doesn't just mean money...saving gas is also important...not giving money to
    big oil or sending it to the middle east is important. Not creating massive
    pollution is important.

    At 30mpg driving 15k miles/year you're going to burn 500 gallons of gas
    annually in the Aveo. Just half that with a 60mpg Prius. Given a conservative

    50mpg for the Prius it's still just 300 gallons per year.
    Your Aveo will produce 9782 lbs of CO2 per year. (double that if you buy two
    as you suggest)
    My Prius will produce 5282 lbs of CO2 per year...almost half of the Aveo.

    To me comparing the vehicles is akin to saying you can "save" buy buying a
    Chevy Aveo instead of a Chevy Corvette. Yes, you can save money, but you're
    comparing apples to oranges since the performance and features are what drive
    the vehicle choice for most consumers. Those of us who choose to drive the
    Prius, in general, didn't choose the Prius to save money...we chose it to save
    gas. We chose it to reduce our environmental footprint. We chose it to
    support improved vehicle technology. We chose it for it's modern technologic
    features and options such as the smart-key-system, NAV, drive-by-wire, etc.
    Also, the Aveo is an economy vehicle and in an entirely different class than
    the Prius in that regard. Power windows and ABS are not even standard on the
    Aveo for goodness sake.

    Buying a new car is not and never has been viewed as a 'money saving'
    concept. Vehicle choices are much more complex than that for most people, as I

    mention above. I would never have purchased an Aveo if the Prius didn't exist
    when I was looking for a new vehicle 3 1/2 years ago. I had a Ford Expedition
    that I loved to drive, but it made no sense to me to continue to drive
    it...but I wanted some thing more reasonable to drive and yet that would tickle
    my
    technologic fancy, save gas (not money, gas), reduce pollution, and still
    give me the driving satisfaction I'd become accustom to in my Ford. Nothing
    else really fit the bill like the Prius.
    The personal satisfaction and enjoyment of driving a Prius compared to the
    Aveo aren't even comparable. After 3 1/2 years and 57k miles of driving my
    Prius I still get excited about my car. I'm optimistic about the future of
    hybrids, EVs, and other alternative energy choices in cars to come that the
    Prius has opened the door to by it's now main-stream acceptance.

    For reasons completely incomprehensible to me it's become 'the thing' to do
    in the popular press to find fault with the Prius almost always by means of
    omission of information to make the Prius/hybrids sound bad and conventional
    vehicles sound good. I think such omissions of data are reprehensible and,
    frankly, make me question the motivation of the journalist.

    I hope you'll consider doing a bit more fact finding and consider doing an
    article that describes the benefits, beyond the financial ones, of
    owning/driving a Prius or any of the other excellent hybrids on the market.

    Evan E. Fusco, MD

    His response:
    thanks for your note. i admire the prius and the automaker that created it. but
    i don't yet accept some of the assumptions about global warming, CO2 creation
    and whatnot that helped to make it a successful product
    .

    My reply to that:
    Notwithstanding global warming the health consequences of particulate emissions, increased CO2, unnecessary consumption of fossil fuels by archaic automotive technology, etc. are bad for society. Also, if you don't believe in GW then you should make it clear in the article that that is your personal bias and that despite an overwhelming scientific consensus that human CO2 production is a major factor in GW that you choose to omit it as a factor in your suggestion of Aveo over Prius. Again, overall I think the article makes good points and I appreciate your willingness to read and consider my response. But such omissions of data and declaration of your personal biases are unfair and could easily mislead readers. Thank you for your time and consideration. Evan E. Fusco, MD

    Continuation of the exchange (I give him credit for reading and replying to all this!):
    <blockquote><span style="color:#000000">a) i never said "i don't believe" in GW. B) i see no requirement to declare
    that i have lots of questions about GW, its causes and the range of potential
    responses to it -- that's the position that any thinking person should have, in
    my opinion. the point of view that says the key facts about GW already have
    been established and the course for "fixing" it is clear (a la al gore) is
    UNthinking in my opinion -- and i do appreciate it when readers holding that
    point of view state it up front, so i don't have to finish their notes and
    letters.
    </span>
    </blockquote> My most recent reply to the above:
    I understand that, however you presented the Aveo and Prius as comparable vehicles without including relevant performance data. That would be like saying you can get an Aveo for less than a BMW presenting the data that makes the Aveo look good but not including relevant information about the luxury features of the BMW. My point in my original e-mail was that these are relevant data when making a comparison of vehicles...you chose the Aveo as if it were a comparable vehicle to the Prius. My point is that I don't agree with that comparison because you neglected to include pertinent performance, safety, customer satisfaction, reliability and feature information that is clearly in favor Prius. You selected only base cost and gas $$ savings...would you do that comparing the Aveo to a 'vette? I think not. Evan E. Fusco, MD

    End of the Exchange, I think:
    I replied to this quote:
    the point of view that says the key facts about GW already have
    been established and the course for "fixing" it is clear (a la al gore) is
    UNthinking in my opinion -- and i do appreciate it when readers holding that
    point of view state it up front, so i don't have to finish their notes and
    letters.


    I'm sorry, this line just registered with me. Are you suggesting that I
    have an "UNthinking view on GW"? I've no idea how you arrive at such a
    conclusion, but it's wrong.

    For your information (if you haven't stopped reading already) I do not think
    that ALL the facts have been found. But a preponderance of the evidence
    according to the huge majority of scientists suggests that human impact on
    increased CO2 levels is signficiant. Further science suggests that CO2 may be
    impacting GW in a signficant way.

    You notice the careful use of the word "may". IMO you can choose to ignore
    the potential, do nothing, possibly get the situation get worse while more
    data is accumulated over the next 50, 100, or 200 years to confirm the data
    that is suggestive now and would have irreversible consequences for the future
    generations if they are correct. OR you can choose to make reasonable changes
    that will have both certain immediate positive consequences (like reduction
    of smog, reduced use of fossil fuels, reduced health consequences for those
    with lung diseases like Asthma, reduce foreign oil dependence, and advance
    technology to continue this progress into the future) and the possibility for
    attenuating the impact of GW IF our scientists are correct. If we learn they
    were wrong then no harm has been done and the short term benefits still exists.

    For some of us this has value. I assure you I have no GW "agenda". I don't
    donate to environmental causes. I drive a couple hybrids. I change over to
    CFL light bulbs when old incandescents burn out. I have a timer thermostat
    and I make logical changes in a conscious effort to minimize my personal
    impact. I assure you I'm on no crusade despite your rapid judgement when I had

    the audacity to question your motives with your article. What were your
    motives anyway and why the obvious omissions about safety, reliability, CO2,
    features, and etc?
    His reply:
    no motives in particular except to show that the prius saves gas, not money and
    there are better ways to save gas and money. thanks for the stimulating
    repartee.
     
  5. jkash

    jkash Member

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    I also sent a note to the author. My email and his response is below.

    Mr. Levin,

    Would you want to drive an Aveo? I doubt it. Almost no car makes economic sense except the cheapest ones on the market. Does a Corvette make economic sense? Of course not, but people who own them
    love their cars. Same thing for the Prius, but we have the benefit of using less gas and polluting less as well. I don't see where the problem is. Have you even driven a Prius? You might be surprised at how nice the car is. One more thing, what do you drive?


    thanks, jeff. you make a fair point. i've driven the prius and like it. can't
    see myself buying one, though. probably would want to make a different sort of
    statement.
     
  6. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    I emailed the author this:

    "I have a few comments for you about your article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=aW3sY79aEXUI

    The premium on a prius, because it is a hybrid, is smaller than you think - you get more for your extra money that just a gas-sipping drivetrain. There are a lot of nifty features that you don't typically find in cheaper cars.

    Off the top of my head I have: heated side mirrors; steering control buttons for radio and environment; automatic headlights (in Canada); automatic tinting rearview mirror; multi-function LCD display; cruise control; jbl 9-point speaker system with 6 cd changer; smartkey system (one step up from regular keyless entry); engine immobilizer; built-in, programmable garage door opener; automatic climate control; lighted vanity mirror in visors, and a luxurious fit and finish. I believe most of these features come standard in a prius.

    Other Valuable Aspects:

    - The car is very peppy given that the electric motor has lots of torque, so it is fun to drive - unlike a lot of smaller cars.

    - It looks much nicer and is bigger than cheaper cars like the Aveo.

    - The prius scores very highly on Consumer Reports surveys for both owner satisfaction and mechanical reliability. I wouldn't expect an Aveo to last nearly as long as a Prius.

    Now let's look at the real reason the Prius is a good car to buy.

    - It emits half the CO2 and even less oxides of nitrogen than a typical car. If I have to explain to you why that is ultra important..... even with battery recycling this is a huge plus.

    Lastly, Edmunds did a study that said that a Prius' "price premium" can be recouped in as little as two years. Well, I don't expect my car's drivetrain to recoup any money for me (if it does, that's a bonus) - I've received enough value from it already in the way of quality construction, nice features and significantly less environmental impact. "
     
  7. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Mar 19 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]408344[/snapback]</div>
    ahh, so THAT's why you have to buy two :lol:


    edited for multiple postings... i kept getting a database error!
     
  8. pviebey

    pviebey New Member

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    Man you guys are brutal! Well, really not...

    Left off one reason (and my main reason). I can control the cost of my Prius (I have 2, but what's the plural?).

    I cannot control the cost of gas, and I'm frankly #$$#@# tired of being gouged by the gas companies.

    I am voting with my feet.

    pat
     
  9. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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  10. NuShrike

    NuShrike Active Member

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    Further arguments, even if he does't accept GW, the basic reduction of emissions to reduce smog is a very valid and proved argument. Being able to see the city's tall buildings or mountains on the horizon is always nice. I really don't want to be like those people in China that have to walk around with face masks because of the latest smog attack.

    The Aveo does not significantly reduce emissions.

    And I still can't believe anybody would advocate an Aveo with the crash ratings that it has http://www.euroncap.com/images/results/sma...sheet%20(2).pdf
    From http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...tings.php?id1=2

    Less than 2 stars vs 5 star Prius: http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...1=3&id2=193.

    I can't believe anybody would advocate increasing asthma and breathing problems, reduce visibility, and put people in a vehicle that would more likely get them killed. But then, the Tobacco companies still exist.

    How much is one's life worth?
     
  11. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    Let's see if anyone else is convinced that "saving gasoline is a critical national priority":

    State of the Union Address, 2007:
    Good jobs also depend on reliable and affordable energy. This Congress must act to encourage conservation, promote technology, build infrastructure, and it must act to increase energy production at home so America is less dependent on foreign oil.

    State of the Union Address, 2006:
    Keeping America competitive requires affordable energy. And here we have a serious problem: America is addicted to oil, which is often imported from unstable parts of the world. The best way to break this addiction is through technology.

    State of the Union Address, 2005:
    And my budget provides strong funding for leading-edge technology -- from hydrogen-fueled cars, to clean coal, to renewable sources such as ethanol. (Applause.) Four years of debate is enough: I urge Congress to pass legislation that makes America more secure and less dependent on foreign energy.

    State of the Union Address, 2004:
    Consumers and businesses need reliable supplies of energy to make our economy run -- so I urge you to pass legislation to modernize our electricity system, promote conservation, and make America less dependent on foreign sources of energy.

    State of the Union Address, 2003:
    Our third goal is to promote energy independence for our country, while dramatically improving the environment. (Applause.) I have sent you a comprehensive energy plan to promote energy efficiency and conservation, to develop cleaner technology, and to produce more energy at home.

    State of the Union Address, 2002:
    Good jobs also depend on reliable and affordable energy. This Congress must act to encourage conservation, promote technology, build infrastructure, and it must act to increase energy production at home so America is less dependent on foreign oil.

    Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov
     
  12. NuShrike

    NuShrike Active Member

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    Btw, it's localtime 11:5x here, but this board is saying 12:5x. DST updates to the OS, or board software not applied?

    Turning off all DST settings in the profile->board settings seems to correct it.
     
  13. rangermike

    rangermike New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Mar 19 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]408514[/snapback]</div>
    You're post precisely summarizes why I purchased the Prius. I love the technology of the Prius, getting 50 mpg (eat that OPEC!) and the Toyota nameplate. I also like the practical benefits of a hatchback. And, as you might have guessed, I hate OPEC and foreign oil. Quite honestly, I'm not much of an environmentalist. I'm probably one of the few on this site that did not purchase a Prius for the emissions benefits. This reason did not even factor into my decision.
     
  14. setheriah

    setheriah New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Mar 19 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]408344[/snapback]</div>
    I also have a 98 cavalier in addition to the prius and I have almost 204000 miles on the car
     
  15. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Final bump, I think our exchange is complete after I took him to task on his accusation of my impartiality on GW.
     
  16. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi All,

    Well, I knew this looked too wrong to be right. Take a look at

    http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo

    The $12000 Aveo is the Aveo5 hatch back small coupe. I drove past a Aveo Sedan tonight on the drive home. Its a little smaller, but on par with the Prius. The Aveo 5 would be minuature in comparison to the Prius.

    Doing a cost workup on the Chevy site, to match the Prius base options, and that $12000 Aveo in the article actually costs $15425. The Sedan LT has a $14075 base price, which includes remote keyless entry and 15 inch Aluminum wheels, but does not include an automatic transmission.

    Add in another $1800 dollars for brake, starter and alternator repairs, and the Aveo Sedan LT now costs very close to the Prius after a 150 K mile repair, using the Bloomberg author's $2.55 gas price. What did it say on the news yesterday $3.71/gallon in San Francisco?

    But of course, the Sedan LT transmission does not have the 100, or 150 K mile garuntee, like the Prius battery and hybrid transmission.

    With the Aveo you need to get the brakes serviced at least once every 50 K miles. Besides the unpredictable alternator and starter failures, and the 50/50 chance of needing a $3000 transmission rebuild to get to 150 K miles. And if the owner sells the car before these repairs are needed, the price of the repairs will be paid in the trade-in, or resale price!
     
  17. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pviebey @ Mar 19 2007, 01:28 PM) [snapback]408460[/snapback]</div>
    One Prius. Two Prii.
     
  18. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    lol.. 1.6 litre Aveo gets WORSE mileage than a 1.8 litre Corolla or 1.7 Civic (or even the new 1.8 litre Civic).

    Heck, it gets worse than the Suzuki Aerio with a 2.0 litre 145hp engine.
     
  19. seasidetraveler

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    My best friend has a Chevy Aveo, he was so excited when it came out. He loves quirky small cars... His previous cars included a 1991 Geo Metro, a 1995 Ford Aspire, 2002 Hyundai Elantra GT.... He likes the Aveo even though I cannot stand the CHEAP interior, but now that it's a couple years old (and he only has 20k miles) it is a junk heap. It has had oil leaks, and has constant suspension issues. He is now thinking of getting rid of it for something that may actually be reliable. He really likes my Yaris, but is thinking of a Smart car. He now drives a 1987 Subaru Justy (little tiny hatchback) primarily and the Aveo just sits at home in its garage. Sad... he loves that car and has babied it but it just falls apart. I would much rather have a Prius! And who would pay $12k for an Aveo? They get heavy discounts, usually get them for less than $10k.
     
  20. micheal

    micheal I feel pretty, oh so pretty.

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    To add insult onto injury, it was one of the least satisfying small cars in CR's 2007 Car issue. Less than half of Aveo owners would buy it again (46%).

    As that wonderful show that alludes name at this time....You make the call. Yeap, 46 x 2 is 92%--the percentage of Prius owners who would buy it again.
     
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