Scangauge or Torque App?

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by FinsUp99, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. FinsUp99

    FinsUp99 Junior Member

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    Since I'm not exactly in the position to drop $120 on a Scangauge II, is the Torque app for Android an acceptable replacement? I've been reading good things about it as well as the clunkiness of the Scangauge. Can anybody with experience with Torque on a Gen1 Prius give any input?
     
  2. Tim Bender

    Tim Bender Member

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    The app is amazing. Period. Get an adapter and buy the paid version.

    No experience with GenI but it worked well on my 1998 accord as well as a GenIII liftback.

    ThunderBolt ? 2
     
  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I assume it has a way new PID definitions can be imported somehow? Is there documentation for the import format? Maybe it would be worth writing an exporter for the NHW11 vehicle database we've got, to produce Torque's import format directly.

    -Chap
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I checked the web page and forum of Palmer Performance Engineering and found this post:
    Source: Dash command vs Xgauge

    It looks like you can arrange the gauges for pre-defined PIDs. I also found a reference that custom PIDs can be put in one package but it only returns the hex output. I could not find a hex->gauge output. I also didn't see a structure to support multiple PIDs (aka., the XGAUGE equivalent.)

    The graphics looks good but they seem to only know GM and Ford PIDs and one 'battery' PID but not identified by Prius model.

    I'll send them a note to make sure I've understood their product correctly but right now . . . I'm not interested in a purchase. Interested to ask but not enough to buy. However, I did sign-up for their newsletter.

    One of their forum entries suggested they may add Toyota definitions. If so, I'll get one to test. Right now, interest but not buying.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. Tim Bender

    Tim Bender Member

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    You can definitely add extended pids to torque. You can find the pids on pc

    ThunderBolt ? 2
     
  6. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    Aren't the OBD II pins slightly different on the Gen I? See this sticky AE Pig-tail and code flasher | PriusChat or maybe Bob can expound.

    I have Torque and I love it. I have used it with great success on my Gen II but I've never tried it on the Gen I b/c of the hang up I have (either real or imagined) about the OBD II port. I know I've read several posts that say you need a different cable when using the Scanguage w/ the Gen I. I'm assuming its the same for Torque??????
    It makes me think it won't work on the Gen I but, I haven't tried it so, I really don't know. If you figure anything out, please share the info with us.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The problem is the NHW11 uses one of the CAN lines for another function. So when a scanner tries to 'auto-detect' the vehicle protocol, many of them test CAN first and this causes false error codes to show up in the brake controller and error lights. Harmless, they look bad and could potentially mask a real problem.

    pin signal
    1 6 CAN high
    2 14 CAN low
    3 7 ISO-9141 K line NHW11
    4 15 ISO-9141 L line NHW11

    Source: On-board diagnostics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now AutoEnginuity allows us to force ISO-9141 and avoid auto-discovery spiking the car. The Graham miniscanner only uses ISO-9141/KWP2000. But the ScanGauge II seems to insist on a CAN probe so a pig-tail ensures only the K and L lines are connected.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #7 bwilson4web, Dec 31, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  8. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    I wonder what Torque's protocols are? All of this is way above my head but, I kind of understand what you're saying.

    Do you have any idea on whether or not these problems are common to Torque or have any idea how we could find out?

    I suppose I could hook up my BT adapter to my NHW11 and see what happens.
     
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    When I looked at the web site, I saw their products supported both CAN and ISO-9141 but I didn't check to see how they specified the OBD protocol. Knowing a pig-tail solves any problem and not having a Torque to test with . . . your mileage may vary. <grins>

    If you see a bunch of brake light errors show up and reading the codes shows brake codes, DON'T panic. Turn the car off, remove the OBD, and restart it. If you still see the codes, restart it three more times and the lights will 'go away.' Then see if you can manually set the OBD to use ISO-9141 . . . . or you could try this first. <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    I installed Torque Pro on my smart phone last week, and bought a ELM327 bluetooth adaptor on eBay. Total spend about $20. Plugged it in and it seems to work perfectly with no fiddling - no problems with the car and I get a bunch of standard measurements - RPM, engine temperature, throttle position and vaccuum, etc. And the process to add custom PIDs looks very straightforward, either manually in the app or using a .csv input file.

    My challenge now is getting the additional measurements that you guys have on Scanguage, particularly MG temp and battery state. I've been reading here and elsewhere on this, and went through the database on sourceforge (Wow, thanks guys!) and tried setting up some customer PIDs based on that but haven't had any success. I also took some of the gen2 PIDs and tried modifying them according to the Scanguage definitions, but without success. The good news is that nothing I've tried has had any negative affect on the car :)

    A straight export of the NHW11 database won't work, but I have to think that a conversion is possible... This is completely new to me, but I'm willing to play a bit. Any suggestions?
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, a conversion is sort of what I was calling an exporter. The only one that's written so far is one that takes the XML database and exports it as ScanGauge XGAUGEs. But if you can describe what goes in the Torque CSV file (or link to a description), it shouldn't be impossible to generate that as well.

    -Chap
     
  12. vincent1449p

    vincent1449p Active Member

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    Hi Jeff F,

    If the std PIDs are working, then it is possible to get the enhanced PIDs to work. You only have to change the header. Here is one e.g. for you to try:
    Column 1
    0 [TH]Name[/TH][TH]ShortName[/TH][TH]ModeAndPID[/TH][TH]Equation[/TH][TH]Min Value[/TH][TH]Max Value[/TH][TH]Units[/TH][TH]Header[/TH]
    1 [TR][TD]State-of-Charge[/TD][TD1]soc[/TD1][TD1]0191[/TD1][TD1]A / 2[/TD1][TD1]30[/TD1][TD1]90[/TD1][TD1]%[/TD1][TD1]82D5F1[/TD1][/TR]
    Vincent
     
  13. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    Thanks, Vincent. I will try this tonight when I get home. I'm still confused about how the header is determined, but I'm sure this will become clearer as I go along.

    Chap: I've been looking at the files created by Vincent el al for newer Priii. Here is the header and a couple of lines from a gen2 import file for Torque:

    Name,ShortName,ModeAndPID,Equation,Min Value,Max Value,Units,Header
    FR Wheel Speed,FR WS,2103,A * 32 / 25 * 15625 / 25146,0,120,mph,7B0
    FL Wheel Speed,FL WS,2103,B * 32 / 25 * 15625 / 25146,0,120,mph,7B0
    RR Wheel Speed,RR WS,2103,C * 32 / 25 * 15625 / 25146,0,120,mph,7B0

    This is exciting! Thanks again.
    Jeff
     
  14. vincent1449p

    vincent1449p Active Member

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    Gen1 uses different protocol from Gen2 and Gen3 so the header is different.

    This is Gen1 OBD message format:
    OBD message format.jpg

    This is Gen2 and Gen3 CAN message format:
    CAN OBD message format.jpg

    http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM327DS.pdf

    Vincent
     
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  15. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    Vincent, I tried that sample PID but don't get any data returned. And my ABS light started flashing.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    <GROAN>

    Don't you know how tempting this technical talk is?

    I've got too many technical toys already!

    Bob Wilson

    ps. I was decoding a Scangauge problem BEFORE every buying one.
     
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  17. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    Sorry Bob :). I'm just blundering along here. One of the appeals for me is the convergence of a bunch of tools into one universal device - my Android phone. I'm not at all tempted to use dedicated hardware.

    Brief update: after reading more about ELM327 I removed the first byte from the header that Vincent provided and it worked. More interestingly the adaptor seems to have learned from that, and now shows that is it is communicating under ISO 9141-2. And now I seem to be able to add other PIDs from the database with no header or just a single byte. So I am cautiously optimistic.
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I've long been wondering about the CRC code. In the communications world, the hardware generates and checks it. But I get the impression the CRC codes are being pre-calculated and added to the packet.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Guys,

    I haven't read up on Torque's CSV import format yet, but I notice two things in the samples you've posted:

    1. they seem to contain the PID but not (explicitly) which bits to use out of the response data

    2. the "equation"s seem to have some unbound variables like A, B, C, ...

    So, am I right in guessing that Torque uses A, B, C, ... to refer to certain fixed-width (8 bits wide?)
    portions of the response data?

    It shouldn't be hard to write an exporter from the NHW11 database to a Torque CSV file. Maybe I'll have time to play with it tonight.

    -Chap
     
  20. SteveWlf

    SteveWlf Old-on-Hold

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    I've made several attempts to install the Torque App on my Leverno tablet. I'm a Newbie to the Android operating system and have had problems installing new Apps, so this could be "operator problem".
    Once the download and instalation process takes place, there is no indication that the install was sucessful and I can not find the App on my tablet. I go back to the vendor site and it indicates that I have already purchased and installed the App but does allow me to download/install it again. Still nothing on my tablet.
    What is happening??

    Steve
     
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