Separation between Church and State: Allows religion to flourish...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]524730[/snapback]</div>

Please, give an example where religion has "encroached back in to the realm of politics" that has been any different than a previous time in our country. What, exactly, is different now then before? Please be prepared to show how religion specifically has caused this change you speak of. Wide generalizations reflect your level of thought.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Oct 12 2007, 01:53 PM) [snapback]524748[/snapback]</div>

reminds me of the written portion of the SAT's... :lol:

 

thank you burritos and i would like to add a passage from a favorite book of mine
"humans created religion not god, and this human made invention has done nothing but create separation between people. tragically, more blood has been spilled on behalf of religion than from all other diseases and crimes combined.
religion fosters hatred. it gives rise to war and genocide--all in the name of god. well, war, hatred and genocide are not any of gods names.
the fact of the matter is that divine wisdom, by its very nature, can evoke only harmony between people. the arousal of love and peace is an intrinsic effect of a genuine spiritual wisdom. it builds bridges between people of opposite faiths.
if a so-called religion displays any form of hostility or division within its own ranks or towards another faith, then something is terribly amiss. conflict, intolerance, and darkness cannot, by definition, exist in the presence of light and true spirituality."

 

@ Burritos:
"Let's keep it separate folks. Enjoy your religion, let it influence/guide you, and permit it to make you who you are. "
That's the most tolerant statement I've heard you make about religion. Kudos.

@SilverPri
"Please, give an example where religion has "encroached back in to the realm of politics" You're kidding, right?

@lefat1
"tragically, more blood has been spilled on behalf of religion than from all other diseases and crimes combined."
That's not a fair statement. Wars are fought over resources, religion is only the drumbeat to keep folks in line. Groups without conflicts over resources do not generally fight wars, just over religious beliefs. Groups in conflict over resources tend to use any differences in cultural/religious beliefs as a rallying cry or group identity against others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Oct 12 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]524770[/snapback]</div>

Read my post, how is it any more so than ever?

 

Freedom of Speech.
Freedom of Religion.

Take one away, you will lose the other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Oct 12 2007, 02:53 PM) [snapback]524748[/snapback]</div>

Could you please cite a historical equivalent of the far reaching direct goverment funding of religious organizations under the faith based welfare initiatives established by executive order in 2001?For example, federally funded groups are now explicitly allowed to have religious requirements on hiring and federal job-training vouchers can now be used to fund religious training.

Also, as the original poster stated "encroached back in to...," I find it an amusing reflection of your level of thought that you are implying that he was positing that religion has encroached a never-before-seen amount into politics - while even quoting that he said no such thing.

Sorry, or were you "just asking an innocent question"? ("Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?")

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]524730[/snapback]</div>

Interesting take on things. I will agree that many people likely became "disillusioned with religion" and sought refuge in America. I think it is more likely that many more people became disillusioned with political control over the practice and expression of religious belief. This probably explains why so many of the early settlers from Europe were the "nonconformists" or other outcasts who felt their governments should not attempt to dictate either the content or form of their religion.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]524730[/snapback]</div>

Interesting conclusion here. Is it just the past 8 years that people have said things like: "I'm right and you're wrong" or "let me explain why this is the better way" or "this is the way it should be"? I think all public debate has included such statements. You don't have to look beyond Madison, Jackson, Jefferson and their contemporaries to see such speech.

By the way, who would you have standing on the moral high ground and wielding influence?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]524730[/snapback]</div>

Just one more observation. Are people expected to separate themselves from their most closely-held beliefs? Of course not. You don't. What is your religion? Given your previous posts and your signature, I doubt very much it involves divine sovereignty or any religion with designated teachers or leaders.

No pot shots, here. I'm just really wondering why you would care to suggest that freedom of religion is so important when your very signature says humanity will not have arrived until we are free from religion.

 

Note:
Burritos is an EVANGELICAL athiest...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Oct 12 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]524866[/snapback]</div>

There is a certain eccentricity to the statement that almost satisfies, but it seems akin to being a fatalist with a great hope for tomorrow and a desire to bring everyone into the predicament of his own creation.

And here I thought he wanted to be quietly left alone.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]524764[/snapback]</div>

Homosexuality or religion? :huh:

Could it not just as easily be written, "If religion weren't hated so much in homosexual texts, perhaps we wouldn't waste time legislating against it."



One of the biggest pitfalls of the atheist community's rabid assault on anything or everything "God" in government . . .
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301380,00.html
. . . is the sheer ignorance it breeds in schools which aren't allowed to even mention "God."

How can children learn anything about what religion is if they can't even take a non-denominational, non-preaching course on the religions of the world? Don't you think the subject may have at least a little something to do with world history? The atheists would say, "sure, but don't mention 'god'."

So now what do we have?

A bunch of ignorant legislators . . .
House Panel Approves Resolution Recognizing WWI-Era Armenian Killings as 'Genocide'
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301037,00.html

. . . even though all eight living former secretaries of state and three former defense secretaries condemn the proposal . . .
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title...fairs_Committee

. . . because of the consequences it would have in US/Turkey relations.
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Oct12/0,4...enocide,00.html

And what other hot "Foreign Relations" topics are there for the House Foreign Relations Committee to be all over???? . . .

Dems urge State Dept. to hire gay translators
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dems-u...2007-06-25.html

Hmmmmm, Do we really need translators to understand gays?
. . . especially considering that "Gay Studies" courses are allowed in schools. :mellow:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]524870[/snapback]</div>

Now we're talking. There are interest groups of all stripes out there, each attempting to exert its own power of public persuasion. Perhaps we are just stuck with the people continuing to make the choices. Thankfully, they can make their choices based on their own beliefs and thoughts with no official intervention.

We have many more pressing issues to manage as a nation than sexual preference. I think I might put management of foreign policy, management of the budget, fairness in taxation and appropriateness in government spending (pork trimming) right up there with managing safe food supply, water supply and air supply and developing a real and realistic energy policy. Unfortunately, not all of us will agree on how to deal with these issues. The divisions will come from the ways people set priorities for themselves and, therefore, their communities.

Too many people having to have their own way is a major cause of this strife. Too bad we teach our children (and accept for ourselves) that our own happiness is the ultimate goal and the path to happiness is the one that should guide our decision-making.

Now . . back to the Prius. Why do you own and drive a Prius? What informs your decision-making in choosing to live the Prius lifestyle?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Oct 12 2007, 12:02 PM) [snapback]524756[/snapback]</div>

Hogwash. I demand a recount.

In the 20th century alone, atheists killed or caused the death of more people than 19 centuries of Christianity before it. Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Pol Pot are the real mass murderers of our time. Stalin alone killed far more than the Christian church's Witch Trials (300,000 in Europe, 22 in Colonial America), Inquisition (about 3,000 people) or the Crusades.

Its obvious that it is not religion that causes man to kill man, as these men specifically had no religion. And it isn't lack of religion either, because there have been religious men who killed a lot of their fellow humans. It is the darker side of human nature that causes man to kill man (while part of "human nature" it is also avoidable).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Oct 12 2007, 02:10 PM) [snapback]524825[/snapback]</div>

I like it! But then, that's because it fits my philosophy that freedom of religion represents something much greater than just what church you will or will not attend: it represents freedom of thought.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]524730[/snapback]</div>

Everyone's praying their jobs don't get outsourced or their mortgages get foreclosed.