1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Should the U.S. government apologize to Maher Arar?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by jared2, May 15, 2006.

  1. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    Should the US and Canadian governments apologize to Maher Arar for arranging to send him to Syria to be tortured and should the governments compensate him for his suffering?




    [​IMG]



    Maher Arar, a 35-year-old Canadian engineer, is suing the United States, saying American officials grabbed him in 2002 as he changed planes in New York and transported him to Syria where, he says, he was held for 10 months in a dank, tiny cell and brutally beaten with a metal cable.

    Now federal aviation records examined by The New York Times appear to corroborate Mr. Arar's account of his flight, during which, he says, he sat chained on the leather seats of a luxury executive jet as his American guards watched movies and ignored his protests.

    The tale of Mr. Arar, the subject of a yearlong inquiry by the Canadian government, is perhaps the best documented of a number of cases since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in which suspects have accused the United States of secretly delivering them to other countries for interrogation under torture. Deportation for interrogation abroad is known as rendition.

    In papers filed in a New York court replying to Mr. Arar's lawsuit, Justice Department lawyers say the case was not one of rendition but of deportation. They say Mr. Arar was deported to Syria based on secret information that he was a member of Al Qaeda, an accusation he denies.

    The discovery of the aircraft, in a database compiled from Federal Aviation Agency records, appears to corroborate part of the story Mr. Arar has told many times since his release in 2003. The records show that a Gulfstream III jet, tail number N829MG, followed a flight path matching the route he described. The flight, hopscotching from New Jersey to an airport near Washington to Maine to Rome and beyond, took place on Oct. 8, 2002, the day after Mr. Arar's deportation order was signed.

    After seeing a photograph of the plane and hearing its path, Mr. Arar, 35, of Ottawa, said in a telephone interview: ''I think that's it. I think you've found the plane that took me.''

    He added: ''Finding this plane is going really to help me. It does remind me of this trip, which is painful, but it should make people understand that this is for real and everything happened the way I said. I hope people will now stop for a moment and think about the morality of this.''

    Records of the jet's travels also show a trip in December 2003 to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where the United States holds hundreds of detainees, suggesting that it was used by the government on at least one other occasion.

    If the plane was used to move Mr. Arar, it is the fourth known to have been used to transport suspected terrorists secretly from one country to detention in another.

    Among the three identified in previous news reports is one owned by a company apparently set up by the Central Intelligence Agency, according to The Washington Post. Another, first described by The Chicago Tribune, is an ordinary charter jet that was also used by the Boston Red Sox manager between missions ferrying detainees and their guards to Guantanamo, with the Red Sox logo attached to the fuselage or removed, depending on who was aboard.

    Maria LaHood, a lawyer for Mr. Arar, said the new information on the Gulfstream jet lent support to his lawsuit.

    ''The facts we got from Maher right after he was released are now corroborated by public records,'' said Ms. LaHood, who works for the Center for Constitutional Rights, a group in New York that advocates investigation of human rights abuses. ''The more information that comes out, the better for showing that this is an important public issue that can't be kept secret.''

    She said Mr. Arar and his attorneys believe that American officials wanted him to undergo a more brutal interrogation than would be permitted in the United States in the hope of getting information about Al Qaeda.

    After 10 months in a cell he compared to a grave, and 2 more months in a less confined space, Syrian officials freed Mr. Arar in October 2003, saying they had been unable to find any connection to Al Qaeda. The Syrian ambassador to the United States called the release ''a gesture of good will toward Canada.''

    Charles Miller, a Justice Department spokesman, said the government had no comment on the case. The administration has refused to cooperate with the Canadian inquiry into Mr. Arar's case and has asked a judge to dismiss most of his lawsuit, saying that allowing it to proceed would reveal classified information.

    President Bush has said it is United States policy neither to engage in torture nor to deliver prisoners to countries where they are likely to be tortured. Former intelligence officials say rendition is useful for cases in which secret information has identified a suspected terrorist but cannot be used for a public prosecution in an American court.

    Mr. Arar has told a consistent story since his release: He was detained at Kennedy International Airport in New York on Sept. 26, 2002, while changing planes on the way back to Canada from a vacation in Tunisia. He was then held for nearly two weeks, awakened at 3 a.m. and taken to an airport in New Jersey, where he was put aboard a small jet.

    Shackled in place, Mr. Arar says, he followed the plane's movements on a map displayed on a video screen, watching as it traveled to Dulles Airport, outside Washington, to a Maine airport he believed was in Portland, to Rome, and finally to Amman, Jordan, where he was blindfolded and driven to Syria.

    According to F.A.A. flight logs for Oct. 8, 2002, only one aircraft flew from New Jersey to the Washington area to Maine to Rome: the 14-passenger Gulfstream III jet, operated by Presidential Aviation, a charter company in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. The jet left Teterboro, N.J., for Dulles at 5:40 a.m.; proceeded at 7:46 a.m. to Bangor, Me.; and left Bangor for Rome at 9:36 a.m.

    The only conflict with Mr. Arar's story is that the Maine airport was Bangor, not Portland. And the logs cover only flights departing from the United States, so they document the trip only as far as Rome. Court records show, however, that immigration officials ordered him deported to Syria.

    Nigel England, director of operations for Presidential, said he would not divulge who rented the Gulfstream that day or discuss any clients.

    ''It's a very select group of people that we fly, from entertainers to foreign heads of state, a whole gamut of customers that we fly and wouldn't discuss one over the other,'' he said.

    The plane flew about 50 flights a month to various destinations in 2002 and 2003, according to federal records. Presidential's Web site says a similar jet would now rent for about $120,000 for an itinerary like the one on which Mr. Arar apparently was flown.

    Records show that the plane was owned in 2002 by MJG Aviation, a Florida company that lists its manager as Mark J. Gordon, an entrepreneur who also owned Presidential at the time. Mr. Gordon could not be reached. The plane has since been sold and the tail number has been changed to N259SK, records show.

    As for Mr. Arar, he said he felt the identification of the plane helped establish his credibility. ''I don't know for sure but probably people had some doubts about what I said,'' he said. ''This goes to prove and corroborate at least part of my story. I hope even more information will come forward.''
     
  2. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    Hey jared, do you agree any judicial system can be 100% perfect?
     
  3. BellBoy

    BellBoy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    220
    2
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    If his story is true, then hell yes. The U.S. should kiss this guy's nice person with golden lips for what they did to him.

    BUT...

    The U.S. had damn sure have CONCRETE PROOF that this guy was/is al Queda or it's all over for Bushie and his stormtroopers. I'd better be able to see video of this guy learing how to make IEDs or aiming a rocket launcher at our troops before they call him guilty. How many more stories like this are we going to keep seeing before this is brought before the proper authorities--whomever THAT might be: CIA?, FBI?, State Dept.?...NO...crimes against humanity tribunal?...PERHAPS.
     
  4. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 15 2006, 03:49 PM) [snapback]255844[/snapback]</div>
    True. But what happened to habeus corpus? Arar's family was not even told what happened to him. He just "disappeared". And how should he be compensated for his suffering? Isn't this action more like what you would expect in a totalitarian regime than in the United States?


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BellBoy @ May 15 2006, 03:53 PM) [snapback]255846[/snapback]</div>
    I believe the fact that he was released is a tacit admission of his innocence.
     
  5. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    No.

    Do you know with 100% certainty that his story is accurate? Obviously you can not trust the NY Times and his own story to base your conclusion that the American government was is the wrong. What independant sources to have to base your judgement - or have you already come to a conclusion without seeking other sources.

    And what about all the American citizens arrested and jailed in foreign countries - what recourse do they have? I believe we should not offer citizens of other countries any more than they would offer our own citizens.

    Sidebar: What do you think about the Duke lacrosse players "rape" allegations? Are they guilty or innocent??
     
  6. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2006, 04:09 PM) [snapback]255861[/snapback]</div>
    Last time I checked, people in the US were considered innocent until proven guility, not guilty until they could prove themselves innocent. So where is the evidence that Arar was a terrorist? Maybe the same place as the evidence of WMD in Iraq?
     
  7. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2006
    1,996
    5
    0
    The case of Maher Arar has fortunately gained attention because of the inquiry made by the Canadian government and the insistence of the Canadian press. We have no way of knowing how many people have been seized, detained, tortured (and killed) under the rendition program, and how many of them were entirely innocent of any wrongdoing. At least one other case, that of Khaled el-Masri, is known (see Bob Herbert's column in the NY Times.) Maher Arar had initiated a lawsuit against the US government. That suit was dismissed; not on its merits, but because the judge determined that "the need for much secrecy can hardly be doubted."

    This case is a travesty, and the rendition program- outsourcing torture to countries where it is sanctioned- is a disgrace.
     
  8. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 15 2006, 04:12 PM) [snapback]255863[/snapback]</div>
    You are asking the US to apologize for something you have not proven they did and then at the same time stating that this person is innocent until proven guilty - you want the cake and eat it too. Is he an American citizen by the way?? In order to even consider an apology, you need to prove he was not a terrorist.

    How do you know he was innocent??????

    Still waiting for your other corroboriating sources and your view on the Duke players.
     
  9. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]255870[/snapback]</div>
    As I said, the burden of proof is not on me or Arar, but on the US authorities. Arar was simply changing planes at JFK to get home to Canada when he was seized, put on a plane and sent to Syria. Or are you saying he made it all up just to play games with his wife and kids? In a way, this case is worse than those you read about in China or other countries where dissidents are thrown in jail for months or years. He was just trying to change planes.
     
  10. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 15 2006, 04:26 PM) [snapback]255872[/snapback]</div>
    again, your sources that prove his innocence beyond a reasonable doubt..................
    waiting

    and your opinion of the duke lacrosse rape allegations.....................
    waiting
     
  11. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2006, 04:37 PM) [snapback]255883[/snapback]</div>
    To address these in reverse order:
    1. What are the duke lacrosse rape allegations? Sorry, I read a lot, but not about sports.
    2. You have missed my point. I don't need to find any sources to prove Arar's innocence. He is presumed innocent, as are you and I.
     
  12. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 15 2006, 04:47 PM) [snapback]255887[/snapback]</div>
    jeeeez

    you cite two sources that profess to his innocence (one being his family) and try to sell them lock stock and barrel. do you have any other sources except your hate of the American government and President Bush??

    1. check our cnn.com for all the info you need for you to pass judgement :)
     
  13. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2006, 04:54 PM) [snapback]255889[/snapback]</div>
    Apparently, all the info the agents needed at JFK to bundle Arar off to Syria for torture was his name appearing on a list - but that is just fine.
     
  14. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 15 2006, 04:12 PM) [snapback]255863[/snapback]</div>
    That's complete BS.

    The word you're using is incorrect, and it makes a big difference, it's "PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty".

    You get dragged into jail first, not the other way around...
     
  15. Mirza

    Mirza New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    898
    0
    0
    I hope that Dems to win '08, so that when you all criticize the government I can keep calling you (Mystery Squid and dberman) anti-patriots and US haters. It's not all fun and games when the tables are turned.

    ----
    And congrats dberman... you are officially the first and only PC member to be on my ignore list. Your views are utterly disgusting and completely ignorant.

    As far as your stupid little retort goes, this topic is discussing the case of MAHER ARER, NOT AMERICANS KIDNAPPED IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR THE DUKE RAPE CASE!
    ---

    Mystery,

    Since when did presumed innocence mean getting secretly chain-tied to to a covert plan, shipped off to another country, and tortured for 10 months (and if you READ you would see that Syria released him because they did not find evidence of a link to Al Queyda)?
     
  16. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ May 15 2006, 05:17 PM) [snapback]255905[/snapback]</div>
    Hey, I honestly can't make that call. On the FACE of it, it does seem horribly wrong. However, I can't exclude the possibility there might have very well been a good reason for it (maybe they had info. that pointed to him having info about some chemical attack, and they took the risk he knew something and tried to beat it out of him, I don't know I'm just illustrating with an arbitrary example). I do assert there's no way any judicial system can be 100% accurate until the mind reading machine becomes available, but on the other hand, if I were in his shoes, I'd think I deserved compensation as well.
     
  17. maggieddd

    maggieddd Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    2,090
    13
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]255870[/snapback]</div>
    You come across as ultra radical neocon. You are scary, dude.
     
  18. BellBoy

    BellBoy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    220
    2
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 15 2006, 02:02 PM) [snapback]255897[/snapback]</div>
    Y'know...I seem to remember reading a top secret report that stated that a "Mr. Squid" was on the top of the al Queda watch list. How about we give you an all expense paid trip to Syria to visit some "friends" of ours to talk it over? You'll be back home in time for breakfast...in May of 2010. How does that "strike" you (with chains)?

    Would you still be crying about semantics then?

    ;)
     
  19. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BellBoy @ May 15 2006, 05:35 PM) [snapback]255912[/snapback]</div>
    It isn't semantics bud, it's the actual, legal way it's written. It's precise and means exactly what it's meant to mean, and it makes a HUGE difference.

    ;)
     
  20. BellBoy

    BellBoy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    220
    2
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 15 2006, 02:41 PM) [snapback]255913[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah...but it's too bad for Mr. Arar that his chaperones didn't know what it meant?