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Steering "Feel" And That Beautiful Yellow #25 Fuse

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by joeveto, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. joeveto

    joeveto Junior Member

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    Hi All,

    I bought my 11 Prius new, back in October, and have since put 25K miles on it. I truly love the car. Barely a day goes by that I don't discover something new or find myself revelling in all the brilliant technology on display in the Prius.

    If I've had one complaint (other than the a-holes who love to tailgate -- regardless of my speed or lane) it's the lack of steering feel. It seems a shame that a company can spend so much money and R&D to produce this amazing car, and yet pay so little attention to something as basic as chassis tuning.

    We have a Miata, and while I'm realistic enough to understand that a Prius will not have the responsiveness and feel of that little roadster, I've also driven enough VW's, Audi's, and FWD Mazda's to know a front-wheel-drive car absolutely can handle well, and provide nice feedback. If you don't believe me, take a spin in the latest Jetta. It's a delight.

    In searching for relief from boredom behind the wheel, I found that when I pumped my tires up to the "high mileage" pressures, a lot of the dullness went away. 45 pounds is just about right, and the increased harshness is bearable. With the higher tire pressure, I actually began to enjoy driving the car, finding it to be more responsive than before, and almost fun.

    But then I spent some time with an Audi S4, our Miata, and again with a Jetta, and found that beautiful steering feel the Prius simply can't deliver through the electrically assisted rack. This led to many hours looking at and contemplating the purchase of a 5-Series, 3-Series, A4, A5, etc, to replace the Prius. In each case I'd consider the additional fuel and maintenance costs (!) of these cars, combined with the reduced practicality, and I'd take another look at my Prius and realize just how regretful I'd be if I sold it.

    So tonight, I turned to the internet. And while looking for a way to bypass the navigation system's speed-nanny, I did a search on "tuning" electric power steering. As luck would have it, I found guys who were doing research with a 1st-gen Prius. They illustrated a way to use potentiometers to vary the voltage seen by the steering system and blah, blah, blah....

    I'm 41, I've owned cars without power steering. So I figured Wth?

    I opened the hood, flipped open the fuse panel, located that little yellow bugger, and yanked it out. Then, after just a little bit of hand wringing (remember the scene in 7 when Morgan Freeman is standing in front of the box wondering if he should open it?). I looked back at my laptop, then again at the pulled fuse, shut the hood and powered on the car.

    My hope that no warning lamp would be lit was immediately dashed. The little red power steering light was pretty bright. But no biggie. It's a small light that can easily be covered.

    I backed the Prius out of the garage and at first could not believe the steering was as heavy as it was. Back in the day, a little movement at the wheels usually resulted in a significant reduction in the amount of effort needed to steer. But then, the Prius steering unit was meant to have power assist, so it's geared differently than those old manual units which came with gearing that was far less aggressive.

    Once straightened out and headed down my curving driveway, I could immediately feel the difference. I mean, more than just an increase in effort, I could feel stuff going on down there. I wanted this so bad, my first thought was that it was a placebo effect. So I headed down the road, got up some speed, and found some sweeping turns (fairly rare, here in northern Illinois).

    Off-center effort is light. As steering input increases, the effort increases dramatically. In other words, the effort is not quite linear, but initially light, then HEAVY. But not oppressively so. Also, this was my first go at it, compared to the previous 25,000 miles of light numbness, my bicycle steering feels heavy.

    On gently sweeping turns and small corrections, the steering had actual feel. More than that, the steering has real feedback. You can read uneven surfaces through your hands. Undulating roads actually feel like undulating roads. At one point, I made a turn and I hit some light debris. Low and behold, the steering went light, actually communicating the reduced grip.

    After only a few miles, I found old habits kicking in. As I came to a stop where I intended to turn right, I found myself prepositioning the steering wheel to go right while the car was still moving. I smiled as I realized the last time I did that was back in my non-ps Corvette, so many years ago.

    I returned home and had a little bit of concern as I approached my garage, afraid the sharp turn would be too difficult. It wasn't. I had already compensated for the increased effort, and turning into the garage was a complete non-event.

    The jury is still out, but the preliminary findings are encouraging. I don't think I'll keep this setup for good. It's a novelty that I think would quickly become tiring in the day-to-day grind. But if I can accomplish what was outlined on the website I found, possibly reduce the electric assist by about 70-80 percent, and still have real feedback, I'm game. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

    If I go down this road, I'll give you my update here. If any of the rest of you have experimented with this and have something to offer, I'd love to hear about it.

    Cheers!
     
    Robert Holt likes this.
  2. ny_rob

    ny_rob Senior Member

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    Haven't looked at the steering gear mechanics- but are you concerned that it wasn't designed to handle all the force you're using to turn the wheel? Could you prematurely ware some component out?

    I have a Five with the 17" wheels and the faster turning ratio steering gear- to me the Five's steering is very good and provides ample feedback. Maybe you should take one for a good hard ride at a local dealership....

    PS- I had a Miata too- amazing handling, it's like you wear the car as an accessory... :)
     
  3. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Unless there's some way it uncouples, you're also dragging the electric steering motor along when you turn the wheel.
     
  4. joeveto

    joeveto Junior Member

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    I had no idea the 17" wheel shod Prius had a quicker steering gear...

    Hmmmm. I would assume this unit would bolt into mine with the 15" wheels. Agree?

    You make a good point about potentially wearing out components not meant for the force. I haven't really thought that through.

    I figure that since it's still in warranty, I'll do what everyone else does:

    I'll get the car back into the dealership (steering wheel broken in half, wheels hanging, whatever, but with the fuse certainly back in place, no fingerprints left to give me away). If the dealer doesn't fix it to my exact liking, I'll pitch a fit about shoddy engineering and Toyota's total lack of regard for my safety, threaten law suits, the whole nine yards.

    Maybe I'll even go online and trash Toyota's and the dealer's reputation in forums like this, go on YouTube with my kids and pets and the "dangerous Prius," cry a little bit, you know, to get attention...nevermind this is my third Toyota in three years, fourth overall, and I'm actually delighted by the folks at my dealer.

    Money is money.

    If I go that route, I'll just have to hope they don't see this post using my real name :cautious::LOL:

    Thanks for the feedback!

     
  5. Jonny Zero

    Jonny Zero Giggidy

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    I don't know if this is a Five thing, or a 2012 thing, but my 2012 Five is as good as a hydrolic PS. I know how bad e-assit can feel. My friend's 2010 Prius Three, 2009 Corolla, my sister's 2010 Matrix all had this uncertain dead center feel, that required constant correction at highway speed, but mine seems fine.

    I hope that made some improvements to the tuning across the board for 2012.
     
  6. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    It's not much quicker. In the US version it also uses a different electric motor and the control electronics are different so it would be a lot more work than swapping out a rack unless you were going to go permanent manual steering.

    Have you considered doing the potentiometer mod to reduce steering boost? Someone needs to make an after market potentiometer unit to plug into the steering electrics so you don't need to modify the stock wiring.
     
  7. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    I don't know if the Prius does this, but on other vehicles, the electric steering is tied into the stability system where the electric motor receives input from the control system when there's a stability situation. There should also be a wheel position sensor. You may want to check and see if it runs through the same fuse.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Excellent experiment:
    I'm thinking of trying this on my next out-of-town trip. I may also do it with our NHW11 although it is my commuting car.

    Thanks,
    Bob Wilson
     
  9. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

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    Installing a set of 17" wheels will solve your problems, seriously.

    When I borrowed F8L's old set of 17s, all of my complains about numb feel, wandering, etc were instantly resolved.


    iPhone ?
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Does that change the tire diameter?

    The reason I ask is I am running maximum diameter front tires on our NHW11 which improved straight-line stability from a larger moment of inertia. The road feel did not increase but it noticably reduced the 'wander'. It also increased the miles per wheel rotation by about 6% allowing slightly higher speeds while staying in hybrid mode.

    If you go with a 17" wheel but don't increase the tire diameter, at most, one is running shorter side walls and possibly a larger moment of inertia. It isn't clear that these would improve road feel except the shorter side walls might reduce the tire handling of road imperfections.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. joeveto

    joeveto Junior Member

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    Im hesitant to go to a 17" rim because of the unsprung weight. The factory 15" rims weigh around 16.5 pounds whereas the 17" rims weigh 24. My preference would be to grab a steering rack and control box from a 17" car and keep the 15 inch wheels.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It will change the diameter. I'm running 205/50R17s which are just slightly larger than stock which made my speedometer more accurate:) The prius fives 17s are 215/45 and are slightly smaller than stock. The wider tires with better grip allow me to take turns that would have clicked in the traction control nanny. They also seem to brake better in the wet, and give slightly better steering feel. Tire rack shows the circumference, which lets you pick the appropriate sized tire, and they do vary by brand.

    IIRC toyota talked about a possible software change to use a less aggressive steering assist, but dropped it. I'm sure someone can do a hardware or software modification. I'll be happy to beta test the system.
     
  13. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Julian Edgar of Autospeed.com did an article on tuning electric power steering.
    AutoSpeed - Modifying Electric Power Steering
    I took a glance at my Gen III repair manual and it looks like it's still the same system Julian modified in the article.

    FWIW, GM has at least 3 boost options in the Cobalt electric power steering and there are rumored to be a couple of more options in the Cobalt system if you have the factory level software instead of just the dealer level.
     
    austingreen likes this.
  14. chrisj428

    chrisj428 Active Member

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    The Jetta has an electrically assisted rack as well (well, starting with the MkV, anyway). ;)

    I've found the 17"s on mine offer much better steering feel than the 15"s on others I've driven -- markedly so.
     
  15. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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