Suddenly getting misfires on all four cylinders

Discussion in 'Prius v Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by wrench, Sep 17, 2022.

  1. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Clearly the diagnosis has to be made first before doing much more than shotgunning some new parts, which is the common first step we hear about. But plugs, coils and injectors can get expensive unless it is clear they are at fault.

    Typically one misfire will report as many on these engines so the diagnosis of a bad part based on codes alone is tricky. Counterfeit plugs are a known issue but it is unusual they fail so quickly. Oem plugs routinely make their 120k mile interval and often are trouble free through 200k.

    A recent South Main Auto video shows a borescope procedure on a gen3. In that case it had progressed to obvious coolant loss and was not an early case that sometimes goes weeks or months between events. There seems to be evidence early hg leaks can bypass the gasket and quickly seal as the cylinder heats up. These leaks often respond to sealers for one to twelve months.

    The pros often do a short block because it provides new pistons and rings, a Toyota acknowledged flaw in 2010-mid 2014 gen3s. It also eliminates bent connecting rods as a possibility which has happened when a hg leak was allowed to progress significantly. The rods have been known to break even after a hg repair because they were slightly bent due to hydrolock and or misfires. Again the short block option is the high end, 150,000 or greater mile solution. Others simply replace the pistons and rings, still others only replace the rings.

    A recent Gasketmasters (California oufit with mobile service) engine replacement I heard about was a ring job with rebuilt head and gaskets. Specifically a Felpro head gasket, new J&D rings and rod bearings. The swapped engine included a cleaned EGR cooler, new PCV valve & hoses, a cleaned intake manifold, new spark plugs, oil and antifreeze. Plus a three year parts and labor warranty, all at the low end of engine replacement pricing. Actually their engine pricing is less than many shops charge for a head gasket. Hybrid Pit in Socal also has a good reputation with reasonable prices.
     
    #21 rjparker, Sep 29, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Underfoot

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    Leak down test is also good. Simplest approach would be to have a competent shop do it, requires compressed air and a special gauge set. And some know how. Individual cylinders are brought to TDC on compression stroke and tested.
     
  3. wrench

    wrench Junior Member

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    Good info from all... Thank you!

    I've been very reticent to do the "throw parts at it" type of approach. I'm also very aware that *some* parts are also inevitably going to be required.... It is certainly possible that one or more of the plug coils is bad. I haven't changed those at all, and if 120K is the low end of life, I've got 117K on it right now. It is a pain that all cylinders could show a misfire when only one plug/coil is bad. That certainly makes diagnosis quite a bit harder to do... The plugs themselves, however, were changed about 500 miles ago. I was going to do that when I did the head job but for a variety of reasons I did not. The plugs are Toyota OEM, though, that were purchased *from* a Toyota dealer. They should not be counterfeit.

    I do have a great deal of concern about "shotgunning" and that also applies to an assumption that the HG is bad again. I'd really like to narrow down on a conclusive test that identifies it as a problem before I go down that route again.

    I really don't want to do the sealant stuff... My sense is that it just gums everything up and makes a mess when the inevitable head gasket job is required anyhow.
     
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  4. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    These cars are junk..... all gas savings gone and lots of mental fatigue......... only vehicle I've had that's blown a head gasket.... plus the brakes, inveter and traction battery.......
     
  5. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    You can do a compression check with techstream

    Please post screenshots of the histeresis
     
  6. Air_Boss

    Air_Boss Senior Member

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    Nowhere near the junk that was our 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan. By 30,000 miles it had everything but a replacement engine block.
     
  7. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    OEM coil on plugs are $100 each for a G2 maybe more for a G3. But These engines make quite a racket like the motor is blown when a cop fails though.

    The traveling misfires are usually caused by one thing and that's subsonic vibration. So much so that the pg waveforms on the cam and crank sensors get distorted the engine ecu cannot decode those distorted waveform's and runs home to mama and throws a missfire. Lots of them.

    So either you have a bad HG or you are not timed properly. Get under the car and listen while the engine is running. Is it making a low thudding noise? Does it sound timed? Have someone put the car in gear while holding the brake and see what it sounds like with a load on it. While holding the brake and e brake on give it a little gas in gear.

    Good luck be careful.
     
  8. wrench

    wrench Junior Member

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    OK, based on that comment about a failing coil on plug, it sounds like that isn't the issue. As for as timing.... I was very very careful, to the point of absurd, when doing the HG. That included ensuring that the timing was correct on the chain, so I would be very surprised if that were the problem. For what it is worth, the engine pretty much purrs. I have not tried putting it under load, as suggested, but when unloaded, it starts quickly and without any thuds, bumps, bucks, or untoward sounds. While driving, it purrs in as much as a Prius will purr. They always have a high RPM when going up hills and you give them some gas, so, nothing new there (BTW, I'm pretty gentle on mine that way, but there is a disconnect between the pedal and direct engine RPM, unlike my manual Mini Cooper).

    It sounds like you guys are zeroing in on another bad head gasket. crap! I was so happy about how well that went in... Honestly, I'm completely baffled by where I could have gone wrong... I did use the OEM gasket, though. I'm getting the feeling that maybe Felpro is better?

    It sounds like I need to do a compression test, sniff the coolant for hydrocarbons, borescope the cylinders after having the car sit for a while with a pressurized coolant system, and a leakdown test. I'll have to have a shop do all that because I don't have any of the necessary tools other than an Amazon video scope, but I suspect that might not be good enough for this need.
     
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  9. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    You could always take it back to the guy who did the head gasket and throw a fit. Seriously I would first wait until it repeats, maybe you drive the car until it does.

    I would start with the borescope as the other techniques won't help on an occasional fault or simply do the sealant which is diagnostic in itself when the problem quickly goes away.
     
  10. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    This is supposed to be toyota quality...... and a lot newer than 90's dodge technology.....
    The cars are JUNK.....................
     
  11. Air_Boss

    Air_Boss Senior Member

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    That hasn’t been our experience with our 2012 v Five, but that’s where statistical variance in components, build, usage and maintenance creep in.
     
  12. PriusGoonie

    PriusGoonie Junior Member

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    Check out my post it's slightly similar, the thing is there is an inverter recall. I have a very funny feeling that the EV battery is running more efficiently due to me cleaning the Battery fan filter scrim under the rear right seat, after getting a "maintenance battery parts go to dealer" error, so I'm thinking something has surged some system and has caused the firing sequence to fire incorrectly or not at all; The 12V battery is given 12V by the inverter, and the inverters on these cars are being recalled because they cannot go into a safe mode/stall the car at any moment on the freeway, sometimes causing accidents (Fatal. Deaths have occurred). The recall is supposed to have a finalization of some sort in early 2023, unpaid/not under warranty until then but they advise to tow to Toyota if you are stranded, nevermind the coffin and 6 foot dig order we also need.

    Anyways just a thought, and I found some green crap in my throttle body months previous, was having more strained initial starts, like 2-5 piston rotations thud then smooth running. What I mean by thud is it jumps a little hard for 1/2 - 3/4 second then it was smooth. I also sit in a parking lot for 9 hours per day with it cycling on and off every 5-10, 15 minutes or so.

    Read the thread I created, it goes into much detail. Putting it in Toyota on Monday or Tuesday we'll find out for sure.

    Solve yours yet?

    Cheers

    Studdering misfire on startup after cleaning Battery cooling fan air filter | PriusChat
     
  13. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    He did the HG himself.
     
  14. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Check this out Wrench:


     
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  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Underfoot

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    Go in with your eyes open, and keep a tight grip on your wallet. Especially if they propose the coils-and-plugs parts-cannon.
     
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  16. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Or Dodge Journey: transmission overheats from highway driving
    or Chyrsler 3.6: needle bearings on drivers head lifter disintegrate
    Chrysler 3.8: piston rings crumble to pieces
    Chrysler Concorde: What doesn't break
    Chrysler LeBaron/K Car/etc: 50k mi car lol
     
  17. wrench

    wrench Junior Member

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    rj. LOL. Yeah, I talk to that guy that did the HG all the time. He knows all of my most intimate secrets and challenges... I see him every single time I look in a mirror. He just won't leave me alone! :)

    PriusGoonie: I'm having a hard time understanding how an inverter failure would result in a periodic misfire that cannot even be felt or heard. If it were not for the light coming on, we'd not even know there was a misfire. But.... I can tell you that I checked the coolant fan for the HV battery less than 1 month ago. It looked brand new. There was no buildup on it at all. I'll look through that thread though....

    Ed: Spark, EGR, Fuel, or HG seem to be the most likely scenarios.
    • Spark can be wiring, computer, or spark coil, but not the plug as I've replaced those recently.
    • EGR has been cleaned but I can take the manifold off again to confirm the passages are clean. The intercooler and EGR was cleaned about 15K ago when the HG was done. The intake passages were also cleaned at that time but taking the manifold off is easy so I'll likely do that again.
    • Fuel... Fuel filter, fuel pump, injectors, wiring or computer. The first two are supposed to be for the life of the car but???
    • HG... Yeah... It could be that, although I do think I did a good job. But, I need to check the oil, sniff the coolant, check the cylinder, check the compression.
     
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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  19. wrench

    wrench Junior Member

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    ChapmanF: I gather you are talking about the comments about the misfire margin. That is interesting. When I get access to TIS, I'll try and get the information. My current diag system isn't sophisticated enough to present it.

    Tomorrow I plan on taking the wipers and cowling area off and then call my friendly mechanic. I'm hoping that this extra work will lower the cost of trying to rule out (God, I hope it doesn't rule *IN*) the head gasket. So... compression, borescope, and sniff the coolant for hydrocarbons. Because the bore and compression tests require access to the spark plugs, I'm hoping that my doing the windshield stuff off will reduce the cost.
     
  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Underfoot

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    Check first link in my signature, there’s info and tips.
     
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