Taking it Higher on Electric Avenue. How plugged in do you need to be?

You know; I would just like to be able to start every morning with a topped off main battery. Just a charger with the ability to shut off when the battery (current nickel metal hydride) is full. I can plug it in at night and in the morning the main would be topped off. Sure going 50-100 miles on battery alone is nice but I'm getting 50/55mpg now and for now thats enough. Plug me in please!

 

I couldn't agree with you more! Amazing things are coming our way...so exciting!

 

Posted comment, and answered a few questions:

 

This is very exciting. I like the idea of having two different, competing technologies. That is what innovation is all about. I'm somewhat confused as to why the Volt has to have two different drive motors, instead of just one, but I assume it's because the generator is producing a more inconsistent current that would harm the smaller motor. Still, why not just let both use one, bigger motor?

So after reading this article and the "more people in more hybrids" comments above, I have to ask ... if we have a limited capacity of battery production, is it more efficient to have 1000 regular Prius cars on the roads, or to have 500 PHEVs on the roads?
Of course, I suppose if we want to completely switch from oil to electric as the primary energy source in the future, we must go forward with this. Just thinking about it, that's all.

 

I'm not sure I understand your first question. By its very nature, a series hybrid has 1 generator and 1 motor. The drive motor can run backwards as a generator for regen braking, and the generator will probably run backwards as a motor to start the ICE. If you combined these function, it would no longer be a series hybrid, it would be a parallel. We know the Volt's drive motor will be significantly larger than its generator. Under normal conditions, the drive motor will pull all of its power from the battery. Under some conditions it will get power from both the battery and generator. Under unfavorable conditions it will get power from only the generator, limiting its drive power. The series hybrid is more like a "real" electric car, because only the drive motor is connected to the wheels. The ICE and generator are just there to make electricity. However, being more like a "real" EV doesn't necessarily mean its more efficient and certainly doesn't make it not a hybrid. There are operating conditions under which a series hybrid is less efficient due to the penalty of having to convert energy back and forth between mechanical and electrical. From what I have seen, given the same size electric motor and batteries, the Prius architecture would be more efficient than the Volts as it can run in either parallel or series mode (or both mixed together) depending on what is most efficient under the current conditions.

As for you second question, I'd have to say traditional hybrids would have more impact (as much as I want my PHEV/BEV).

Look at it this way, using someone who drive 15,000 a year or 41 miles per day:

- A traditional car will average 22mpg, and has no battery.
- A Prius will average 46mpg, and has ~1.3kWh of battery
- A Hymotion Prius will average ~100mpg, and has ~6 kWh of battery (4.7+1.3)
- A Chevy Volt will approach inf mpg, and has 16 kWh of battery

From that angle, the Volt looks pretty good. But now lets look at actual fuel consumption, and cost at $3.50 per gallon, assuming for the moment that electricity is free:

- A traditional car will consume 681.8 gallons a year, at a cost of $2,386
- A Prius will consume 326.1 gallons, at a cost of $1,141
- A Hymotion Prius will consume 150 gallons, at a cost of $525
- A Chevy Volt will consume ~0 gallons, at no cost.

Even in this more favorable case where we ignore electricity's cost and pollution, it becomes clear that there is an aspect of diminishing returns at work. Given a limited capacity for battery production, I think we are far better off focusing on strong hybrids like the Prius. The Prius reduces consumption by 273 gallons per kWh of battery, the Hymotion by 88.6 gallons per kWh, and the Volt by 42.6 gallons per kWh. Cost wise the returns diminish even faster when the cost of electricity is taken into account. GM estimates the Volt will cost 2c/mile on electric, which is $300 per year.

This is a good example of why I think Toyota has the right strategy, and GM is on the wrong track. Given that battery production is currently limited and expensive, there is a lot more bang for the buck to be had from regular hybrids than long range PHEVs. And this doesn't even take into account the upfront cost difference issue. The HEV saves a lot more per car, but given the huge difference in price, it will also sell a lot more units greatly compounding its per car impact. As capacity increases and prices come down a gradual transition from HEVs, to short range PHEVs, to medium range PHEVs, to long range PHEVs and finally to BEVs makes a lot more sense to me.

GM's gamble could payoff. If they can use the tax credit to drive enough volume, they could bring the cost of batteries down more quickly and suddenly be out in front (at least temporarily) of Toyota's more conservative approach. That would be great as it would get us all in BEVs a lot sooner, but I fear its unlikely. There will be a certain number of people who will jump on the chance to drive nearly gasoline free for environmental and/or political reasons, and my hat will be off to them. I may even join them if the end result looks well built & reliable and I can scrape the cash together. But I just don't see the average person spending $32,500 or more (assuming $40k - $7500 tax credit) on a small, slow sedan that happens to get great mileage. Just look at the significant percentage of the population that thinks the Prius is too expensive for what you get. I hope I am wrong!

Rob

 

Well, I can go out and buy a PHEV Prius, or convert mine today. I can not, and will not be able to in the foreseeable future, be able to buy a Volt...............

 

You're right. I must have been tired and not thinking clearly the first time I read that. Thank you.
Also, for the second question, the rest of your post clears things up for me. Thank you, again.

 

so do i.

we need to stop looking at the purely financial story. that is the reason why EV's are so far behind NEEDLESSLY!!!

give me what we had 10 years ago!!

to look at straight numbers 650 gallons to 350 gallons is better than 350 to 250???

cmon man!!

ZERO gallons is what we need... stop looking at percentages!!!

EV's are practically nowhere because of the money needed to invest in the technology and the infrastructure is high...

so you suggest that spending 650 billion a year... oh wait!!! that's right!! you think spending "ONLY" 350 billion a year to a foreign country is ok??

please tell me... why is this ok when its a pretty well established fact that putting in an infrastructure of public charging ports, creating factories to build EV's, other modes of electrical generation to supplement current supply, etc would be money SPENT ALMOST ENTIRELY IN THE UNITED STATES!!

how much would it cost to put in EV charging stations all across the country??
i read once where they estimate 125 to 300 billion...well, that a 6 month supply of oil... but lets face it, WE DONT HAVE TO DO IT EVERY YEAR!

now adding additional power stations like solar and that stuff takes a longer period of time, more land use regulations, etc to get over, and that infrastructure is estimated to cost between 500 billion to as much as 2 trillion... so that would be a long term thing... but considering a minimum 5 year time frame to convert just 25 % of POV miles to EV... we definitely have time

now subsidizing EV options with real rebates from the government is a good idea, albeit, pretty F**ing late doing so... but i guess better than nothing...

its my opinion that this bailout will be a major failure... its the "add-ons" we got in the package deal that might save our sorry asses

 

My 1.5 cents:

If we cannot make enough batteries (much less price them low enough) for the masses to have low-cost BEV's, then zero oil imports CANNOT happen near term. Therefore, the analysis of alternative resource allocation is extremely helpful.

Volt is great, but is overkill for the marketplace in terms of large-scale revolution of the world's car fleet. HEV and PHEV are not the end-all solution, yet are a vital and important step.

 

batteries are not the end all answer no matter how much they advance, but they are a great step in the right direction and could fill a very large niche

 

I don't disagree Dave. I guess I'm just a little more cynical right now. If Prius' or Insight IIs outsell Volts 10:1 in the first few years, they will take a much bigger bite out of our national consumption. Barring a real game changer, I just can't see BEVs being any closer than 3-5 years out in volume. Granted, that game changer could just arrive on November 4th if things continue as they appear now.

Of course as you rightly point out, the biggest thing holding back EVs is someone just deciding to take the plunge and do it. The price of batteries will come down with volume and investment in infrastructure. Until someone gets serious about selling EVs in big volume, that will never happen. Biggest challenge I see right now to the whole thing is cheap Chinese batteries. Even GM is being tempted to go that route on the Volt. If we end up indirectly investing in the Chinese battery infrastructure instead of our own, much of the Green Jobs and new Green Economy is pretty much out the window. I think thats the biggest reason we need serious action taken on this front by the government, if we don't make these technologies available and affordable in the US asap we miss the boat.

Sorry I'm coming off kind of conservative. My only excuse is I have a cold and don't feel well. Usually I'm an upbeat, optimistic global economy kind of guy

Rob

 

Hi Miscrms...
You had suggested about cheap chines batteries in your post.I would only like to say that these batteries are although cheap but they are not reliable.
So i think that these batteries should be avoided.
Jimmy

 

Love your sig Jimmy, use a lot of it do you?
Why do Chinese batteries have to be unreliable?
Made in China can mean cheap crap but in a well managed and designed factory the savings from lower wages can reduce the price while the quality is maintained because no corners are being cut.

 

batteries will get cheaper, but they have to change. most now use rare metals that we simply cannot mine in volume.

right now, the biggest hurdle to EV's is the range limitation AND perception. there is a HUGE range for "normal" battery capacity. its not china for battery quality issues, its the world and we all know it from personal experience. how many of you talk to people who have a cellphone that only has to be charged every other day while you have the same phone, same battery, charge yours daily and are STILL thinking about getting a car charger "just in case?"... this creates hesitation in the market place for potential buyers.

well that is how batteries are. even the experts only have a vague notion as to why some batteries last 4 years while others are dead in 6 months under similar conditions. that is why, EV's will not really progress into the main stream until something completely new is implemented... BUT we have enough knowledge, capability and utility NOW to make it work for a very large group of people now. doing so immediately will save our country BILLIONS in reduced energy costs.

create more jobs locally, recyle our money HERE instead of funneling it to the middle east.

i still think the only way to really get EV's off the ground is for the government to sponsor a lease program. EV's are still a niche product but most who would benefit from them cannot afford to buy a "commuter only" vehicle. let people lease one for a reasonable price, drive it until the batteries fade, trade it in for one with a fresh pack. slowly implement technology advances in charge storage technology as it comes about. subsidize the program for at least say 3-5 years. offer lease purchase options or major tax breaks on purchases for program participants based on the length of time they are members of the lease program

sure this program will cost money, but at the rate the government has been spending money lately, this would be a drop in the bucket. and for every mile driven in a government leased EV, it would be saving the US pennies per mile on their foreign energy bill.

 

I don't mean to imply that China can't make good product. But the reality is GM isn't shopping there for good product, they're shopping there for cheap product. My concerns largely come from the experiences of EV converters who have been lured by low prices into trying Li-ion cells from various Chinese manufacturers over the last few years. In general their experiences with initial quality, lifetime, and customer support have been abysmal.

here are a few examples:
YouTube - Thundersky battery failure in Bob Siebert's AC150 conversion
ThunderSky Lithium-Ion Cells
http://www.electric-echo.com/blog/?p=53

Also, if we trade mid-east oil for Chinese batteries we're not really fixing that part of the issue are we?

Rob