TDI or Prius??

Boy, derlmiller, I haven't much to add other than I think you've done your homework!

I did some research along these lines almost 2 years ago, and came up with almost all of the information you did. My main reasons for going with the Prius were better reliability (VW electrical reliability has been very poor), and that I thought the HSD would last longer than a traditional car's (I plan to keep the car for at least 10 years.)

One data point I can add: a good friend of mine bought a VW Golf diesel before I got my Prius; he runs it on biodiesel. (Dr. Dan's "special brew" of Ballard! Sounds like a microbrew.)

We've been comparing mileage and other things. In general, he gets a pretty consistent ~40-44 MPG, I believe; in the winter, I get 39-43 MPG, 43-48 MPG in spring and autumn, and between 48-53 MPG in summer. (Note: most of my driving tends to be short trips -- no more than 5 miles or so -- so take that into account.)

The Golf is a nice car; and he skis a lot, so the heated seats are nice. He and his partner looked at Priuses initially, but she found the Prius a bit too big. The Golf fit their needs better.

 

couple things....

1) the supply for hybrids will be woefully inadequate for YEARS...so the resale logic is flawed.

2) maintenance on any diesel is much much higher. this does not count unscheduled repairs.

3)Prius traction batteries have various warantee lengths that can give you replacement...but 8 years is stretch. most drivers would be at the end of the warantee in 6 years or less. as usual, not letting us know where you are located makes answering this question tough. but the minimum is 100,000 miles. the likelihood of you needing the battery replacement is next to nil.

4) the mileage penalty for E10 is nearly neglible. look at my signature. E10 is required year round for my area...that is all i use...that is all i can use. to use something else i would have to drive at least 100 miles from home. also, other than 4 fillups last year, i always get gas at the same station. (which means i dont really go anywhere...but havent used but a few days of vacation since getting my Prius...that will change.)

5) this is a personal thing. i think an extended warantee is a waste of money. that is because i would never buy a car that i would expect to have to use such a warantee. i also would never buy a Jetta without an extended warantee. i know several people who have one. i dont know of any who have not had to go through a very expensive repair of one type or another (hint. all had to do with how the car burns its fuel) these are not the newer ones. so maybe the '06's have solved that problem... only time will tell. for its age, the hybrid system of Toyota's have been accepted as reliable faster than anything i can remember. i do think that maybe many have jumped the gun on certifying HSD as the be all to get all and i admit to being one of them. but Toyota has a reputation of quality that is 2nd to none. VW does not

i wont mention the availability of Bio as that will increase (i hope). tough decision to make. i still have to question TDI's reliability. if you are considering it, then you must be in an 100,000 mile 8 year traction area. dont think diesels are allowed in higher mileage areas.

 

IMHO, VW's reliability history, especially with their diesels, is a disgrace. Buyer beware! And speaking of that, my sister had a less-than-agreeable experience with the VW dealer in Fayetteville, NY and wants to ge elsewhere. If anyone knows of good independent garages in the Syracuse area to which she may take her Golf, your suggections would be approeciated.

 

I did a similar comparrison a year or so again. I was never able to figure out if the timing belt replacement at 60k miles would be covered under warranty or if I'd have to pay for that.

But, when I figured in a known $600-$800 repair bill at 60k miles, how many mpg are you getting? Meaning.. if maintenance on the vehicle costs me every penny that I'm saving in gas by having a high mileage vehicle, why not just keep driving my pickup and put the money into fuel.

Of course, any vehicle can have an expensive repair, but for that VW diesel, it's a known one. And, from my research, it's not something like changing an alternator where you get out the tools and do it on a saturday in the garage.

Do you have to get the 5 speed manual tranny in order to get the near 50mpg? I think you lose about 5mpg with the auto, so you're in that 42 - 45mpg...

My wife didn't like the jetta that well...

And, finally, I've been driving a diesel F250 superduty pickup for 6.5 years, 107,000 miles. It's been good... A pickup that gets about 18 mpg, has good power, completely reliable, fun to drive, good for hauling junk.. real nice pickup... but, right now, there are 2 stations that have diesel on my way to/from work. Both have been stuck on 2.99/gallon for diesel for the last 6 or 7 weeks while gas has come down to 2.16, etc.. I come home completely tapped out after 4 days to work and back, then drive 3 miles to another station out of my way where I've been paying 2.59 for that same period of time. 40 cents on 30 gallons is 12 bucks I save for my trouble. It really is a pain in the butt to have to hunt like that. My high tank was when the pump shut off at $100.00 becuase apparently the CC preauthorizes that much I guess. I was near full, or it may have taken another 3 or 4 bucks.

Since I started my new commute 65 miles each way (130 round trip, 650 a week), I have been tracking my fuel cost. Since september, I would have saved the planet 350 gallons of fuel, and myself over $1000 had I been driving a prius at 47mpg. http://d.spicher.home.comcast.net/prius/mileage.htm

The mental anguish of getting the diesel is enough to get me in a gas. I ordered a prius on the 2nd week after my longer daily commute started. Hopefully we're within a month by now. Sometime end of jan/early feb last I heard.

I'd seriously take a look around your neighborhood and see how diesel availability is as well as how much you'd be paying for it. Then figure your cost of operation vs. a gas powered civic or prius. Of course, when I bought my pickup, diesel was 1.18 or so... I dont' see it coming down.. if so.. not a lot... if gas goes up, look for diesel to go up too.

 

I also went through the same scenario back in November 2003 when I got my Prius. I have owned 3 VW products in the past few years. I had an A4, and Audi allroad and a VW Cabrio. The allroad needed brakes and rotors after just 10,000 easy miles. Lucky the maintenance is free, but after 50k it is MY dime! I have had my 04Prius for 26 months and have not had to put in a dime other than oil changes.

 

The Prius is the best choice. Why would anyone want to drive a car whose motor uses gas while going downhill and when stopped in a traffic jam? Diesel or not?

 

It turns out that NiMH batteries will get recycled because it's just as economically attractive to extract the Nickel metal out of spent NiMH batteries than from other sources.

One immediate downside one might go for when arguing against the benefits of hybrids is what will happen to those batteries when they have to get replaced. The below link gives a convincing case that it's environmental impact is going to be less than burning up more gas in a conventional gas car.

Two main points:

1) Many rechargeable batteries are considered toxic. However, NiMH and Lithium Ion are considered low in toxicity.

2) Most rechargeable batteries cost more to recycle than what it would cost to recover the same metals from other sources. Once exception are Nickel based batteries where it's about even with any other technique to refine nickel metal.



See the below link:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-20.htm

 

I've had my 2005 Prius for a year now. I STILL love it! Biodiesel is GREAT but I think burning anything still emits 'SOMETHING' into the air. Right? The process of making biodiesel...Are they using OIL to power the machines to produce biodiesel? Can anyone prove that companies manufacturing biodiesel are - themselves - using biodiesel to power their machinery to make "bio" diesel?

Plus...I've had two VWs in my life. First time, I swore not to get another one, but I did when I fell in-love with the New Beetle. Well, after the 3rd/4th year of owning my 2000 New Beetle, it started falling apart on me. The VW emblem on the wheels were falling off. They're hot-glued on to the wheel! Not what I expect from a German vehicle (though it is manufactured in Puebla, Mexico). As I drove up in my new Prius, my little New Beetle's fans went berzerk and started whirling and never stopped. Maybe "Sam" was in fear of being replaced by a newer, smarter vehicle! Anyhow, it cost me $900 to replace two plastic fans on my VW. Arrrgh!

But...It's up to you!

 

i feel that we have not even begun to see the peak of hybrid demand. there is still a lot of people who have completely wrong asumptions about the technology. as more and more of them get on the roads and the miles of hassle-free driving pile up, more and more will be converted. in 7-10 years when stories of people turning 200,000 miles and still not having to replace the traction battery, i feel that only then will acceptance of the technology be complete. in that time, we are looking at what?? 5-10 million on the road by then? keep in mind that real production numbers still seems to be a few years off.

despite what i feel is the fastest acceptance of radically new technology, hybrids still have a long way to go.

i feel that each new Prius on the road creates 3 more people that want one. and its easy to see. talk to people you know. ask them what they know about hybrids. i think you might find it very entertaining... in a tragic sort of way

 

Hello,

I've got two suzuki motorcycles that get 40 - 60 mpg, and a '90 suburban diesel that I converted to run waste vegetable oil. The way I look at it there are four main issues (again from my perspective):

1) cost / mile of driving.
2) Greenhouse gas emissions
3) SMOG-forming emissions (cause cancer, aggrevate asthma, etc)
4) dependence upon foreign oil.

My truck warms up on 20% biodiesel, then I switch to WVO after about two miles. When things are going well, I get about 60 MPPG (miles per gallon of petroleum). This is bc my commute is only 12 miles. If I took longer trips, then it would start to approach infinite miles per gallon (of petroleum). Biodiesel / WVO reduces diesel emissions to about half on most aspects to levels which is still horrible. While the Prius gets an average emissions score of 9.5 out of 10, My truck would get ratings between 2 and 6 depending upon the aspect being measured, whereas the truck on diesel gets a rating of 1.

So basically, at 15mpg (compared to 10mpg for the gas version), while running on WVO, my truck is good from the cost perspective (I paid $3500 for it, and $1200 for the conversion, and I get the WVO for free (5 cents/gallon for filters). It's good for the dependence upon foreign oil perspective, but it's horrible on smog emissions - although better than running on diesel. On the greenhouse gas front, it's carbon neutral, and I'm also recycling a waste product that the restaurant would normally throw out illegally (there call, not mine).

I bought the truck bc it's bomb-proof, cheap, and easily converted to WVO, which I wanted to try. I wanted a TDI, but couldn't find one in SoCal that was a wagon.

Parts are extremely cheap, and it's easy to repair with tons of room. Very simple too - no complex software. Diesels don't need ANY electricity to run. If the alternator fails, the engine will run even after the battery is dead. Its also the most money I've ever spent on a vehicle, so a Prius is an easy 4 times more than I spent on my car.

My motorcycles are good on the cheap front, and moderate on the foreign oil front, due to the good fuel economy, but again, horrible on the smog emissions front, but probably not as bad as the truck. Since green-house gas emissions are inversely proportional to fuel economy, it's good on that front. And a little off-topic, the bikes are AWESOME on performance. My new bike will do 0-60 in 3.44 seconds, and the 1/4 mile in about 10.5s, which blows all but the best cars (lamborghinis / ferraris / etc) off the road, and it only cost me $3200 bucks.

The TDI can be very cheap, with cheap fuel, and even if you don't make your own, since the mileage is decent. On the foreign oil & green house front it can be great if you run it on BD or SVO. The green-house emissions are low, but the smog emissions rate a 1 out of 10. Another thing to bear in mind is that you want a TDI that's '96 later to run 100% biodiesel. '96 and later have synthetic fuel system components instead of rubber / nitrile, which slowly errode in the presence of B100 (blanket statement about diesels). I'd only buy one that was built in Germany.

The prius is good on the fuel cost, great on emissions (both smog & greenhouse), and it decent on the foreign oil front, but for the most part, you've got to spend 'new-car' money to get one.

Personally, owning the truck has been a learning experience. I just recently realized the difference between smog emissions & greenhouse emissions. It took me a while to figure out the benefits between biodiesel and WVO. Another issue is that in '04 I put 5,000 miles on the truck, 2,000 on the motorcycle, and 500 on my bicycle. I don't feel that I put enough miles on the vehicles to justify buying a prius yet. The way I figure it, if you're going to spend less than $5k on a car, go with a german-built TDI (obviously used). If You're willing to spend $20k+, then get a Prius. The bulk of the time, my truck's parked, with the same MPG, emissions / etc of a parked prius. If my situation changes to where I drive something more like 15k per year, then I'd get a prius. If I ever spent $20k on a vehicle, it would definitely be a prius. I'd also try to cram 10% ethanol in it. Another thing that could swing the vote is if you had a strong leaning on one of those aspects - like want something cheap, or are strongly against dependence on foreign oil - then you might get a TDI instead of the prius. If you have asthma, maybe you'd get a Prius instead. I'm suprised that Toyota didn't make the prius flex fuel. Then there'd be no competition.

As a final note to those who have made it through this long rambling commentary: I think that worrying about the energy that goes into processing biodiesel is silly. It's such a huge benefit over regular diesel, and so much better than the average user, and so hard to quantify that you can probably just buy some green tags and call it good. It's fun to talk about and what-not, but you'd have to figure out the total energy used to produce the prius, and then compare that to running an old car (keeping it out of the junkyard). Just by running biodiesel or buying a prius, you're in the top 1% of consumers. Just by thinking about it all, you're in the top 1% of Americans.

Regards,
Nate

 

Good post Nate, and welcome to PriusChat.

 

I agree, very well said!

I was disappointed in this also - E85 isn't available here yet, but it would have made my decision easier knowing that I had that option!

 

FYI, most diesel vehicles sold in the US do not come anywhere close to the Prius or even most conventional vehicles in emissions. The Jetta TDI and Golf TDI aren't even available in California because they do not even meet the least restrictive emissions standards.

Certainly, from a CO2 perspective, biosiesel is excellent - but biodiesel also results in higher NOx emissions than dino-diesel, and particultate emissions, while lower than dino-diesel, are still an issue.

TDI + Biodiesel = Less net CO2 than a Prius, but much higher emissions (NOx in particular). Evaluate the availablility and cost of biodiesel in your area, along with the fact that running biodiesel will void your engine warranty, and decide whether you will really do it. If not, then the TDI offers little in the eco-friendly department over an efficent gasoline vehicle.

Add that to the fact that the Prius still gets better mileage (particularly when compared to the automatic Jetta), has lots of cool features, and is one of the most reliable vehicles on the road, and I think that the choice is pretty clear.

 

Nate,

Just curious, how does getting the WVO fuel work. If you did drive 15k miles a year would getting enough WVO fuel be too much work?

Ed

 

FALSE - the battery is warranted for 8 years, 100K miles. There is NO expectation that you will actually have to replace it then. If a warranty is an indicator of expected fail time, the non hybrid parts of the car would be long dead anyway. If you do have to replace it after 8 years/100K miles, it will be your money.
I think the longer warranty on the hybrid parts are for 'comfort'. The technology is relatively new and a lot of people are suspicious it will fail. Warranting it for longer than most people keep new cars covers that 'fear'.

Toyota has a hybrid battery recycling plant, though I gather there has been no need to use it yet.

 

A representative of GM claims that while driving a Prius, it emits less pollution than a typical car that is parked and off in the garage.

Do I know if this is true? do not know... but I think it's ironic that GM said it.

 

Here's the thing. When you buy a VW you're taking a huge risk on quality. I've owned 2 and I have had a 50/50 experience. One was great (though stolen at just over 20k...so hard to have a long term opinion) and one was in the shop more often than I would have liked.

With a Toyota, its a 1/1000 chance that you'd get a quality risk car. They do make a lemon occasionally, but they're few and far between. And since the Prius is their pride and hybrid joy, I'm sure they're extra careful not to squeeze out a lemon there.

My advice...be smart...bet long on quality and go with Toyota.

Either way...enjoy! B)

 

I was in the same predicament recently and decided to go with Toyota. For one you can barely find any TDI's (Passat models). I was told by the dealership that the Passat TDI was taken off the market in 2004 and will be reintroduced mid year 2006. They will be available "by order" only. I wanted to test drive one and I went from Seattle to Portland and had no luck locating a used one on a lot.

I was interested in the bio-diesel aspect, but, according to VW they will void the warranty if you use anything higher than "B5" (5% bio 95% petrol). Although they are the first automotive company to approve the product, it will take some time to change the automotive world.

I did a search of available mixes in my area on www.biodiesel.org and could not find a fuel station that contained that mix. VW is now doing tests on the TDI fuel system using "B20" (20% bio 80% petrol). For me it came down to cost, maintenance, and reliability history. I trust consumer reports and they hands down go with the Prius over the TDI (I have never seen so many solid red circles ). Good luck with your decision.

Bio diesel FAQ from VW (http://www.vw.com/contactus/faqs.html#5.1)