Tesla Killer Rant ... worth it!

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by bwilson4web, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    Yes, I have a Gen3. There is a "mode" button on the steering wheel that will bring up Aux eventually, after cycling through all the other options first.

    BTW, I consider our Luddite reunion to be on topic, as one of the points in the video is that a "Tesla killer" needs to have all these modern digital voice/touchscreen/over the air update functions, and it seems more than one of us are quite happy with the old fashioned way of doing things. And of course, how much market disruption did Google Glass cause? Oh, and remember those original digital watches that didn't show the time unless you pressed a button?
     
  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Have you ever been let down by a software update? Struggled to revert to a previous version? Migrated out of an application, device or platform when you just couldn't make the new version work the way you needed it to?

    I have, and I can't really afford to do that with a car.
     
  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    And how much disruption did the iPhone cause?
    What about digital cameras?

    We can each give examples of technology that did or didn’t work out.
    The same goes for the UI of cars. It doesn’t matter so much that it does or doesn’t use a touchscreen. What matters is that it is a well thought out, and easy to use UI.
     
  4. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    Yes it does! A touch screen is a flat featureless surface and you can't find a video button by feel. This will always be worse than a physical knob sticking out of the dashboard that you can grope for without taking your eyes off the road.

    A touch screen by it's very nature requires eye hand coordination which in turn requires taking your eyes off the road! A physical control in a fixed location can take advantage of muscle memory and tactile feedback, you can find it without looking.

    I've owned a couple GMs where the volume and tuning knobs for the radio were different diameters, so you could figure out which knob your hand had found without looking. That's pretty much the high point of my automotive user interface experience, and each subsequent car has been increasingly crappy. Of course, eventually I realized that a well designed radio isn't sufficient justification to continue driving an aging Cavalier.
     
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    You find a UI where you have to remove a hand from the steering wheel to be the high point?

    We will just have to agree to disagree that the specifics of the UI are far more important than if the controls include a screen or not.
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    young people are accustomed to, and like, touch screens. they also don't pay attention to the road, so, it matters not.
     
  7. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    I don't consider myself a luddite, in fact I spent a good portion of my life developing cutting edge high tech stuff. I am not against technology and progress. I am, however, against technology for technology's sake. Making things more "cool" than useful. Touchscreen interface is horrible in terms of ergonomics on just about any device. It's one of the worst UI's ever popularized. The only reason it's accepted is because it's very useful in multi-functional devices such as smart phones. It is one of the biggest compromises of functionality vs. ergonomic comfort. Yet we put up with it because it makes smart phone possible. And smart phone is a very useful tool. So we put up with it. Few people actually enjoy the touch screen. Yet we enjoyed playing with physical controls of gadgets past. We as humans love our senses. And tactile sense is a big one. So I posit that touchscreen deletes so much tactile sense from our lives. It's like going to the restaurant and getting food that has no smell. I wouldn't like it. But if that was the only way to get nutrition and survive, sure, I'd eat it. This is what I am talking about the enjoyment of using a tool is a big reason why we drive and own cars. Tactile pleasure of well designed and executed interface is a huge deal to me. Sure, M3 with a 19" TV in it is great and I am sure it works just fine, but where is the pleasure of tactile feedback? I am not even going to talk about the actual distraction involved in operating the screen while driving. I guess I am old fashioned in the way I like to enjoy my senses. I enjoy a well functioning switch, knob, a pot of coffee being brewed gives me olfactory pleasure even before I taste it. Coffee devoid of smell would suck and I would complain bitterly about it to anyone who'll listen, no matter how new and modern that would become. Same with the touchscreen in cars.
     
  8. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    Isn't this just preaching to choir in here? No one has to justify why they buy what the buy. At the same time, people need to stop being haters if they don't like what others buy...whether it be an EV, Hybrid, ICE or big diesel bubba truck.
     
  9. Kenrico

    Kenrico Member

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    He is absolutely correct in the current autotainment not being advanced .He should ask how ENTUNE is doing today on the Prius Prime Advanced with even more ENTUNE minus the Pandora ...

    I may not buy a model S 3 X or Y ..but now looking at my Gen 2 in a different light as I can dynomat it and put in aftermarket stereo if so desired.

    Kenny
     
  10. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I love the fancy screen etc. I like new. Very comfortable with differing UIs. Spent years inside the guts of computers beginning at the transistor level. Been driving for almost 60 years in cars of the last 10 decades.

    I want my safety controls to be tactile and industry uniform. Lights need to be on now, not fumbling or trusting some sensor. Wiper speed I need to control now, not with my eyes off the road that just became hard to see. Darn my windshield just got sprayed by mud left over in the road by the hurricane. I need my wiper fluid now. Defroster too, my windows have just fogged up and I'm in traffic.

    So there are some things I need with "I just know where it is and my hand doesn't have to move from the steering wheel" positioning. Save the UI for when I can safely focus all my attention on the screen without killing myself.

    Yes buttons and stalks cost more. Yes they are another point of failure. But I've seen the million dollar hospital bills from distracted driving. And the multi year rehab.

    Not to mention my wife needs to be able to drive the car too like she did yesterday. And the valet in front of the restaurant or hospital. Or me when I rent a car.
     
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  11. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    While I agree with lots of what you say and many of your points...I don't think it is as lopsided as that.

    How good a UI is depends a lot on how it is used. Phones and tablets, generally, are so popular because the typical uses are based on constant visual feedback and manipulating this with touch via fingers is (usually) very obvious, simple and easy to learn. This has been obvious from the number of children that can barely walk that know how to swipe and pinch on a phone or tablet just by watching an adult. How many kids learned the command line interface on MS-DOS before they could speak?

    But trying to operate a touch screen without looking at the device varies from silly to dangerous, depending on what you are trying to do.

    Mike
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    No, I've used MacOS since 1985.

    Bob Wilson
     
  13. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Depends. Do you get to row a really satisfyingly precise shifter?

    I recognize that we all want different cars with different cockpit experiences, and that's cool. I think I'm seeing signs of frustration coming from the lack of variety (!) in what is offered on the marketplace. And we all have the moment where we think "it ticks all the boxes except it's completely the wrong body type" - a dealbreaker of some kind.

    Hopefully the next generation of neighborhood mechanics will also be qualified UX technicians who can swap hardware and software in the customer car to tune it for their expectations. Keep the touchscreen guys happy, keep a stock of tactile clicky switches and encoders around, offer a kit to delete the brake pedal and set up single-pedal driving, choice of infotainment pod...

    We can dream, right?
     
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  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I have this vision of an after market kit of buttons, lights and doo-dads that via the OBD provides the controls traditionalists desire. Stick-on to the dash and maybe a nice, opaque cover, something like a mural, for the screen. It'll only cost $10,000.

    Would you if you could go back to basics:

    • ignition advance control
    • throttle lever
    • manual choke and mixture
    Dad bought two Model A Fords in the 1960s so we could learn about car mechanics. The lesson learned: DON'T DO THIS AGAIN ... EVER!

    Bob Wilson
     
    #34 bwilson4web, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  15. ssdesigner

    ssdesigner Active Member

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    I imagine that very soon there will be less and less need to even take your eyes off the road to active wipers and things like this. Everything with cell phones is voice activated, so I don't see why this won't be the same.
     
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  16. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    Before we disagree, are you implying you don't need to remove a hand from the wheel to touch a touch screen? My ranting in primarily about *touch* screens in cars. If by UI you mean the entire human/car interface, including steering wheel controls, voice commands, etc., then we are in agreement. I thought you meant the UI within the context of the touch screen only.
     
  17. tpenny67

    tpenny67 Active Member

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    Ah yes, you're enjoying the sense of proprioception, one of the many human senses beyond the classic five. Isn't it neat that you can tell what gear a stick shift is in just by your natural sense of where the shifter is in space?
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Not after the Gen-1 Prius.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Actually the screen would be a great mounting surface for the button panel. I've looked into doing something like what you describe.

    For about a decade I've been using the built-in screens of rental cars as mounting plates for my portable GPS (earlier) and my smartphone (more recently) just so I can have my familiar system and not have to put up with the junk OEM systems. Yes it means I'm tolerating touchscreens. I really don't mind them for a few of the less essential or urgent functions car travel.

    I don't need to go back to riding a horse, but I also don't want to pay for something half-baked and not properly thought out. I lament the loss of middle ground in electric car offerings to date.
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You're assuming the manufacturers haven't locked that down. In California, farmers recently lost the right to touch the software of their equipment.
    John Deere Just Cost Farmers Their Right to Repair | WIRED
     
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