The Iraq Project / Give peace a chance

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 9 2007, 11:09 AM) [snapback]373073[/snapback]</div>

Thankfully there was not 24 hour news during the 1930s and 40s, or we would all be speaking some dialect of German. My inlaws have many apologists among them. They are upset about everything all the time. Peace at ANY cost. Most of them would not say s**t to someone if they were standing up to their neck in it.

 

There are those amongst us that are "hegemoniasts" - that believe America is a force for evil basically. The liberal thought encompasses this to a large degree as evidenced by their willingness and almost optimism for any American mis-step or loss like Vietnam (something they actively participated in by defunding the war) and their glee in seeing our forces having difficulties in Iraq. Their bumper stickers can be revealing like, "I support the troops - bring them home", etc. The same theme - America is bad, America should fail. etc, etc.

Their perverse sets of beliefs includes seeing good where there is evil (Cuba, Venezuala, NoKo, the Old Soviet Empire), and seeing evil where there is good (Israel). They are enablers of those who wish us harm in an effort to further diminish us - the seek to grant constitutional rights to our sworn enemies; they try to lower our defenses like surveillance programs, etc.

Anyhow, the enemy is amongst us - it is our own citizens - and it is their right to do such.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jan 9 2007, 12:00 PM) [snapback]373108[/snapback]</div>

It is amazing but it is their right. I would be interested what this percentage of the population actually is? i would guess 8-10% but growing fast and closer to 25-30% of the PC population.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 01:06 PM) [snapback]373113[/snapback]</div>

I do not think it is growing much and am not sure of the overall % of Americans who are "anti-America". They are however well placed - the NY Times, the WaPo, Time Magazine, al-CNN, universities, etc. Demographics are against them - liberals tend to have smaller families (earth friendly) while conservatives and God loving Americans have larger families -- interesting in that liberals tend to be pessimists while conservatives are optimists -- very telling.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jan 9 2007, 02:16 PM) [snapback]373077[/snapback]</div>

This is true...

My biggest complaint with the Bush administration, is not having a big enough propaganda machine to effectively silence the irrational idiots.

See what happens when you try and be open and truthful about everything? (of which one of the best ways to make the libs twitch, is showing them Bush said from day 1 Iraq wasn't going to be an easy, "slam, bam, thank you ma'am" situation...)

Heck take the "apologist" idea further back in time... If we were a nation of apologists, Tony Blair would be OUR Prime minister.... Good thing the Colonialist Minutemen weren't "apologists"....

I suppose you could even consider the modern day liberals somewhat analogous to the "loyalists".

...anyway, glad to see you back Malorn, the board has been too quiet without you!

...likewise with you dbermanmd...




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jan 9 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]373118[/snapback]</div>

VERY true...

They're obstructionists, generally with no real significant grain of rationality behind whatever they're obstructing. Take someone like daniel, for example, when confronted with quotes from numerous politicians on both sides of the coin regarding the belief that Saddam Hussein was indeed looking to (if he already hadn't) acquire WMD's, simply throws up the idea it was all a big decades old Bushco. conspiracy... :lol:

This is also particularly true of the "we're intentionally not having kids" crackpots, who think they're somehow saving the Earth from either this or that, who have let their own pessimism control their lives and sexual habits... :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jan 9 2007, 12:00 PM) [snapback]373108[/snapback]</div>

It's odd how you lump all of this stuff together... Someone can be pro-American, and yet be against the current war in Iraq for a number of very valid reasons, mostly stemming from the lies told to us by the administration prior to engaging in the conflict. Wanting to bring our troops home and out of harms way in a situation that has essentially turned into a civil war is not at all un-American or "evil". On the contrary, i would propose that forcing our viewpoint, ideology, and form of government on a people who don't seem to want it could be viewed as evil by many, especially those in Iraq.

Additionally, many people oppose items like surveillance programs for fear of their own privacy. The constitution is in place to detail what the government can and can't do, and the Bill of Rights is in place to detail what sort of protections we have against the government encroaching on our freedoms. Surveillance programs (of the mail-opening variety recently discussed here, for example) could very well be encroaching on an individuals rights. The issues people raise against these programs, and their potential use and/or abuse, are perfectly valid, and should be something that every citizen thinks about and considers, especially when it comes time to vote.


All that being said, I am very much pro-American, and feel that in most situations the government and our nation takes the proper action. There are times when i am opposed to what the government decides, and take the action of writing my representatives, or choosing new ones when it comes time to vote.

By the simple fact that there are 300 million people living in this country, it's safe to say that a number of them will be opposed to pretty much every decision anyone makes, for whatever reason. But just because they oppose a few decisions doesn't mean they fall into this nice, neat little box of evil you've described.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 9 2007, 12:33 PM) [snapback]373125[/snapback]</div>

Thank you MS. Good to be back. I know everyone around the office is wondering what I am spending so much time doing. :lol:

 

Just curious, what is the origin of the "hegemoniasts" term?

It seems to be derived from hegemony, but I've always associated that with empires.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jan 9 2007, 01:00 PM) [snapback]373108[/snapback]</div>

It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShellyT @ Jan 9 2007, 02:21 PM) [snapback]373177[/snapback]</div>

I use it to denote someone who believes that America's current place in world affairs is a force for evil - almost like the "evil empire".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 9 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]373073[/snapback]</div>

Explain to me again how the Iraq invasion is protecting our freedom again? Thanks!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Jan 9 2007, 04:27 PM) [snapback]373183[/snapback]</div>

The problem is, no matter what he says, how rational the arugments are, YOU won't BELIEVE it.

Through the years, I've found it's a total waste of time trying to convince one side of the other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 9 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]373185[/snapback]</div>

You're probably right. I do agree with our president on Mission Accomplished, though. Saddam's dead, his WMDs dismantled, so bring the troops home.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 9 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]373185[/snapback]</div>

I wish you didn't feel this way. It's only when things get accusatory and personal that the dialogue collapses.

Personally, I feel like, "I know what I know now, but if someone can present a conflicting opinion in a cohesive and polite manner, I'm more than willing to discuss, consider, and perhaps amend my ways of thinking."

I don't think this is too unreasonable, but I suspect lots of folks here might have another opinion.

An unexamined life is not worth living; those who *do not* agree with us often force the most intense introspection.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jan 9 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]373192[/snapback]</div>

See, here's the problem with that statement: It's been proven false, over, and over, and over, and over, time and time again. The real issue is, people are soooo bent on some point or another, it's become their core belief, and anything other than their standpoint, is wrong.

At least within PC... I'm sure there are some political boards out there where people who are REALLY into this sort of thing can have such discussions. Even so, at some point, go deep enough, and you'll bump into someone's core beliefs, and no amount of rational explanation will change them. Take daniel for instance, he's a pacifist, from his standpoint, there is no rational argument to justify violence.

...and this, is a microcosm perpsective on why exactly it is we have wars. There comes a point where words do not work, and no rational explanation can change a particular course of events, thereby the one with the bigger stick "wins".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 9 2007, 11:32 AM) [snapback]373185[/snapback]</div>

That's rather pessimistic, Mr. Optimist. Why do you keep trying? I do credit you with continuing to try, day after day, but why do you bother if you really believe persuasion is impossible?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Jan 9 2007, 04:53 PM) [snapback]373210[/snapback]</div>

...simple:

I like cracking liberal skulls...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 9 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]373073[/snapback]</div>

Oh, sure, neocons say sites like this are big bellylaffs. But as soon as the tables are turned, the neocons whine like the crybabies they are.

And, for the 1,000,000th time for you who are particularly slow (yeah, I'm looking at you, Squid):

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, an American territory. Germany A) attacked England, an American ally, and B) were an ally of Japan. Declaring war against these two countries was the correct decision.

Iraq (in this war) didn't attack anybody. They were the ENEMY of the folks (Bin Laden et al) who supposedly DID attack us. There was NO justification for it.

Oh, wait, there is one justification: Some folks (we call them Conservatives) HATE the United States, and LOVE seeing billions of dollars wasted, and apparently masturbate to pictures of corpses of American soldiers. Having a pointless war gives them both of these things.

People who LOVE the United States (they're called Liberals) for reasons that are totally alien to Conservatives, get upset about this.

Got it?!?