The Real Risk of Toyotas

NPR Vehicle Acceleration Complaints Database : NPR

 

Seeing the recall problems as strictly a risk calculation obscures the morality and legal issues. If all deaths were simply risks, then a homicide would be treated no differently from a lightning strike. That is, we would not attempt to blame or punish someone for the lightning strike. Viewed strictly as risk, then why do we attempt to find and punish a person that intentionally shoots another? Because the difference is in the morality involved. Our legal system places a stiff penality for someone intentionally taking another's life, while holding everyone blameless for an "act of God."

In the case of a death by a car, the determining cause must first be found. If the driver mis-applied the pedals, the manufacturer is held harmless (unless an argument could be made that some defect in the construction or position of the pedals easily confused the person). If, however, the manufacturer was made aware of a problem and refused to do anything about it and deaths continued to occur, then the manufacturer may be held responsible for failing to take action (through inaction, it can be argued that the manufacturer intentionally allowed further people to die).

Personally, we all make risk decisions every day. However, we do so based on a preception of the safety of the conditions involved with that decision. We have a reasonable expectation to believe our cars are safe (at least to the level dictated by safety agencies). Most reasonable people would not consider a car that might go full throttle without a means to stop it as safe. Discussing the likelihood of that happening does not make this condition safe, nor does it render Toyota blameless (assuming this is what is actually happening to some of their cars).

 

Annual Causes of Death in the United States | Drug War Facts

What? No congressional hearings on ibuprofen?

 

I believe toyota/lexus has 4x the number of unintended accelleration deaths of all other maker combined in the US. I do not think this is interesting. I think it may be criminal.

Of those other makers, I know of no non-japanese maker that has not read the erd when requested.

 

An estimated 100,000 Americans die each year from medical errors. Although this number of deaths does not absolve Toyota, it helps me put things into perspective.

 

8000 - 12000 people die every year in GM vehicles all across the nation...now THAT's criminal.

 

Many times graphing the data tells the tale:

I only selected manufacturers that had at least 34 complaints for a model year to make sure the rate had some validity. The Volvo rates 2000-01 are not shown because they are well above the scale.

Within the Toyota family, not all vehicles are created equal. I first selected models in the top five count of each year. I then went back and filled in the missing year data:

The model year sales were found in Wiki or other open sources that track vehicle sales.

Bob Wilson

 

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/overview.htm

But but but ... who can GM backed legislators blame for lightning?


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The weather? Or, if you are religious - God?

BTW, the weather is much less controllable than the process of designing and manufacturing a car.

 

You asked the question, I provided an answer with some commentary.

If toyota did things either through negligence or actively hobbling investigations to have a much higher death percentage than industry average, then IMHO that activity is criminal. Let's take the san diago crash for instance. Four deaths after Toyota had numerous reports of A) Dealers installing double floor matts, B) known defects with Sticky Throttles. At the time toyota was actively fighting drivers attempted use of information in the ERDs, had a policy of not investigating users claims of unintended acceleration. It seems pretty cut and dried that toyota did not make enough effort to get their dealerships to stop unsafe practices. If they had the floor mats would not have been piled up. If the dealerships were advised to investigate instead of blaming drivers, then after the previous driver had complained about unintended acceleration the car might have been removed from the rental fleet and repaired. If toyota had not fought a failsafe of brakes overiding the throttle, the driver would have been able to stop the car. I count at least 3 failures that led to these 4 deaths. I am sure that most if not all of these deaths could have been prevented. The statistics can only say that things are extremely out of line with expectations. An investigation is needed to decided whether these were just calous business practices or criminal activity.


You had anouther point about these being a small number of deaths compared to other causes, sure, a donout will likely kill more people than these cars, but that does not absolve the manufacturer of responsibility to build safe vehicles. I do agree with that point though.

Someone else seemed to blame GM. I don't get that at all. I would however put some blame on the NTHSA which seemed to be talked out investigating, and this is a serious problem. Comparing things to katrina, ladders, pills really are devices of rhetoric when you can not answer the question.

Risk of dying in a GenIII prius from unintended acceleration is very low. Giving toyota a pass on bad behavior, is likely to encourage more safety problems from toyota and other car makers in the future.

 

Right! . . . . and what say ye about those criminal asprin makers ... off with their heads too?

woah ... a double double negative ... that left a pain behind my right eye . . . . anybody got one of those deadly asprin? I see the dough rolling in (for my survivors, of course)

Thanks! . . . and you base that fact after researching/designing/manufacturing which model? Sadly, now days manufacturers must make ALL products perfect. Take a simple chair for instance (based on doing a bit of products liability, many years ago). If you don't build it strong enough for some 460 pound slob to use as a step ladder ... and it crashes down, causing injury ... pay up buddy.

The irony is inexplicable. We despise the woman (and her attorney) who recovered MILLIONS from McDonalds when she burned her crotch (3rd degree) on spilled hot coffee ... yet now? Please help me reconcile multi million dollar remedies and loath for manufacturers (oh yes ... obviously it's easy to make a car ... just see how many manufacturers have sprung into business in the past couple decades, compared to generations ago) who build to current standards. I'm not talking about Ford Pinto / Firestone tire things where ultimately proof came about ... after all the hearings. I'm talking about being tried in the press ... and, "they'll get theirs ..." mentality. Yep. Inexplicable.

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Try selling a product that is 'substandard' next to the same product that meets the standard (whatever it is).

And your point is? Are you venting your frustration at Trial Lawyers? The alignment of the Sun, Earth and the Moon? Or?

 

As stated in many threads ad nausium ~ Toyota's problems have harmed less (ratio wise) than lightning and aspirin. Yet the hammer flies.

 

As some have posted numerous times before, the fact that there is only 2 in 2.0 million failures is not the point. The point is that if Toyota knew about the failures and did nothing to find and fix the root cause of the failures, they are liable for damages. How much damages and what other relief should apply is generally the subject of a lawsuit.

 

When judged by total death rate per X million miles driven, is it really substandard at all?

I would like all deaths to be minimized. But this controversy has not been over top Pareto chart items. Over the time frame that Toyota is being accused of ignoring these couple items, it seems that they have been whacking larger chunks of deaths off larger Pareto items.

 

At least 100 Americans die on the roads daily from speeding, recklessness, liquor, drugs, cell phones - why no outcry? ....taking responsibility is for other people.