The Truth About Gasoline

my dad retired from a major refining company and those things are about right as far as all gas being lumped together and sent out like you said. The additives are added after the fact. I am unsure about the mid grade octane fuel but I remember him saying it was a rip off because of some manufacturing problems with such and such it was all technical stuff but he was adamant that the mid grade was BS and don’t waist your money on it. And yes he told me the only difference between shell and the non name brand gas was the additives. Now during the summer I do notice shell gas can give my prius about 15- 20 miles more per tank but have no real scientific evidence to back it up but is what I personally think. This summer I am actually going to do some research on this and put it to the test.

 

You're just the messenger and I have no reason to shoot you. I think your reporting of what the gasoline distributor said is accurate. I'm not completely sure about the makers bit. It may be that each brand is marked somehow, but I think the additive package, whether added by the tank truck driver or at the station, is different between, say, Chevron and Shell. The thing to remember is that "gasoline" is a blend of all different kinds of hydrocarbons and alcohols. Also, that octane is not a measure of energy content.

 

See www.TopTiergas.com and see if you still buy this guy's stuff. Some of it is right. Much not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Apr 14 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]423477[/snapback]</div>

Who runs this site? Looks like Big Oil to me, but I could be wrong.

There's always something fishy when you can't see source documentation. :blink:

 

I'm unclear as to what you're saying here. You appear to be saying two contradicting things.

Is it that (a) markers are additives, or (b) markers are not additives?

Or are you saying that a marker simply presents a chemical signature to say, "we pumped this into the Shell station and not into the Chevron station" and said additives do nothing else?

There was a time, 20+ years ago, when the 93 octane gasolines were used as delivery systems for fuel system cleaners. That's how the gasoline vendors marketed those as "premium" fuels. You actually got something else besides an octane boost.

Then the feds came along and mandated minimum levels of detergents, and that by and large went away--although the vendors still use "premium" to describe a higher octane fuel (BP uses silver, gold, and platinum). But now here's Shell saying not only that they've chosen to use a higher level of fuel system cleaners than what the feds mandate, they're also using even more in their 93 octane fuel.

They state, quite clearly, that their "V-Power" fuel is good for cleaning out gunk, and that their non-V-Power fuels meet the "Top Tier" standards for preventing gunk. The Top Tier standard simply ups the ante for fuel system cleaners.

It sounds like your guy denies that?

Did he speak to the Top Tier program at all?

 

I was expecting something controversial from that intro, but that was actually seemed a very pleasant, impartial discussion of some gasoline know-how. Nothing like what I thought you were gearing up for, like, why you shouldn't drive a Prius, or something along those lines.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(snowdog650 @ Apr 15 2007, 01:37 AM) [snapback]423509[/snapback]</div>

did a 'whois' lookup and came up with the following:

Registrant:
National Products Group
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US

Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM

Administrative Contact :
Denny, Jim
[email protected]
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Phone: 918-836-8551

Also went to http://www.aboutus.org/TopTierGas.com and got the following:

Top Tier Gasoline
Description
TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is a recently established new standard for gasoline performance. Four of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.

These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That’s something both drivers and automakers want to avoid.

Address
PO Box 3475
Tulsa OK 74101 US
Contact
National Products Group
+1 918 836 8551, Fax: +1 571 434 4620

And checking into Google Finance, found this gem - check out the matching phone number and address across all three entries:

QuikTrip Corporation owns and operates convenience stores and travel centers located in nine states in the United States. The Company has more than 405 convenience stores, which supply gasoline and sell a variety of products, including 16 to 20 different fountain drinks, coffee and cappuccino, smoothies, Hotzi breakfast and lunch sandwiches, Quik 'n Tasty sandwiches, hot dogs, energy drinks, Hydr8 sports drink and QuikTrip Taquitos. QuikTrip also operates 16 truck stops that offer restrooms, showers, scales, food and beverages, trucking fuel and other truck stop location services. The Company's gasoline is guaranteed, which means that it guarantees to reimburse customers for any repairs related to the use of its gasoline. Its QT Fleetmaster truck fleet fueling diesel fueling program offers businesses customized programs designed to fit their fuel-purchasing needs.

PO Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
USA - Map
+1-918-836-8551 (Phone)
Company website:
http://www.quiktrip.com/

 

the OP is correct in his synopsis of gasoline. its been posted here by me and others that the ONLY difference in gas is the additives package added by the brand name wholesalers after the gas is retrieved from the exact same regional pipeline. the additives package does not affect performance in anyway. they are only detergents.

for all of those who claim better mileage from one brand over another, they are simply misinterpreting their data period.

this has also been posted here many times, but in light of recent threads, it bears repeating...

higher octane gas does not increase your gas mileage. it simply costs more and in some cases with very high engine compression, (not for a Prius) can improve performance.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(walt @ Apr 15 2007, 08:12 AM) [snapback]423603[/snapback]</div>

Nice work, Wait ... so it's owned by a gas station franchise.

Go figure.

I'll trust the OP over this crappy website.

 

While what is posted here is probably correct for -your location-, it is location specific. For example, in Canada you can buy gas from Esso (Exxon), Chevron, Shell, Husky/Mohawk, and others. I know the fuel from Husky/Mohawk has been different for a number of years. They have been adding ethyl alcohol here long before the others - regular (octane rated at 87) got little if any, mid-grade (octane rated at 89) got "up to 5%", and premium (octane rated at 92) got "up to 10%". I'm not sure what the "super Premium" got (94 octane rated) though the pump was labeled "up to 10%". This may have changed, now that all fuel may contain ethyl alcohol, but I haven't inquired on this yet. I'm waiting for the change to filter through the system and the people involved to be trained on the changes.

Even more specific, here in Edmonton we have the refineries (I think there are three but don't quote me). It's true several brands get their fuel at each refinery so no change to the OPs statements, but there -could- be differences between the refineries. Certainly Husky/Mohawk produces different fuel. The ethyl alcohol is made elsewhere (Sask. or Manitoba - I saw the add. but can't remember exactly) and trucked here, where it is blended into the gasoline base stock. That is then trucked to the stations. This is "post refinery", and is probably done all across Canada for Husky/Mohawk. I suspect the others put in a blending station(s) as well now that they will all contain ethyl alcohol. Canada -usually- but not always, follows what the US does.

As far as "top tier" fuel, it appears it's an additive package, so it still conforms to the OPs information. It's done at the delivery truck. I'll have to drive on over to the distribution end of one of the refineries and watch to see exactly what they do.

 

the OP jibes with what I've heard in the past.

 

Did the presenter talk at all about pricing? If all gas is relatively the same, how come the Shells station at one corner can charge less than the one a few blocks down the street? Pricing is the thing that gas stations/companies have NEVER come clean on.

Nice to know that I'm fine buying my gas at CostCo or the local Arco, whichever is cheapest at the time, but it doesn't address the disparity of price from station to station and neighborhood to neighborhood, city to city or state to state.

In California they told us we'd have to pay more for gas because of special additives. Then when the state outlawed the additives, we were told we had to pay more because the gas had to have NO additives. Seems like it's one excuse after another to try to justify an increase in the cost of gas.

A recent news article stated that despite the cost of a barrel of oil being about the same as last year, the cost of the gas was still higher. And that profits had gone up $0.50 per gallon on gas.

So it's nice to know about the quality and all that. But I'd like some explanations about pricing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(snowdog650 @ Apr 15 2007, 09:06 AM) [snapback]423637[/snapback]</div>

I wouldn't "trust" either one ... the OP was just relating what someone told him, that he didn't independently verify. And the Internet is full of websites that shade the truth.

I guess the idea is that since the retailer has an interest in selling the gas, his information must be lies. But it could also be true, and the retailer is providing important information.

Did you do any independent research? While that retailer has a site on the Internet with an explanation of the Top Tier gasoline requirements (GASP!), it also appears elsewhere, and in enough places that I accept the initiative was from the automakers mentioned in these links, and not the gasoline retailers, and that the information on the site is certainly consistent with what everyone else is saying about Top Tier Gasoline:

http://autorepair.about.com/od/generalinfo/a/110305.htm
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/techrongas/
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/12/15/304330.html
http://www.texaco.com/yourcar/techronadvantage_faq.asp
http://www.alohagas.com/Aloha_TopTier.htm
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...p;page_number=1
http://www.conocophillips.com/newsroom/new...704_toptier.htm

From http://www.gm.com/automotive/fueleconomy/detergent.html

You can choose to believe that the extra detergents don't add any value to the gas, and aren't worth the premium that Shell, Texaco, Chevron, etc. are charging for it, but it is a real difference in their gasoline. I don't see any evidence of fraud, corruption or shaky ethics where "Top Tier Gasoline" is involved.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 15 2007, 09:27 AM) [snapback]423648[/snapback]</div>

Goggle "Gasoline Zone Pricing" for the answer. Here's from the Wikipedia article on "geographical pricing":

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_pricing

The refineries, who really have increased profit MARGIN over the past few years, are occasionally criticized for their zone pricing policies; this LA TIMES article outlines the problem. Its not unique to gasoline retailers; back in the 1970s I remember a story highlighting how supermarkets had higher prices in poor areas than in affluent areas (there was even a book named something like "The Poor Pay More").

 

as far as pricing goes, each station determines what its profit will be based on several different criteria, mostly based on their specific situation and greed.

i know a local gas station owner who has 3 stations and the difference in property taxes in nearly $20,000 a year from one location to another which causes the most expensive station to charge an average of 3 cents per gallon more despite the cost of gas being the same. he tried to offer more food (that is where the real money is anyway. he claims to make just enough to pay his employees on gas sales.) to make up the difference but didnt work.

 

The OP is basically correct. And for those who accused him of not researching it, allow me to help you. The Energy Information Administration has a tremendous amount of information about how fuel works in the US, all available for your perusal. This is a good place to start: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/contactexperts.htm

As to the additive packages.... It is very hard to say what difference they make. Additives can make a big difference in certain situations. I know my '82 Mercedes turbo diesel runs a lot better with a cetane boosting additive. Of course, it has 275,000 miles on it, and was engineered 25 years ago in a country with very different fuel standards.

Top Tier isn't really a gasoline quality issue, just an additive package issue. Basically they are saying that Top Tier rated gasoline must meet various ASTM standards for fuel quality (which are, incidentally, the same standards ALL gasoline has to meet, so they are just duplicating the existing requirements), and then meet some additional standards for detergent levels (slightly more additives). It is a real difference, but the marketing seems to imply that the gas is more 'pure' somehow. They don't actually say it, because it would be a lie, but they certainly imply that the Top Tier rating means a lot more than it really does.

The oil market is the most integrated global market in the world, since it is the key feature of our entire modern world. It is completely self-regulating, and is completely mixed. When you pump gasoline, the only thing you know is who owns the station you are pumping from. You can't tell which company trucked the fuel, you can't tell which company owned the distribution plant, you can't tell which country the oil came from, you can't tell which company refined the fuel, etc. It's all smeared together. Boycotts, brand changing, etc, do essentially nothing to affect the oil market. The only thing that changes the market, is total demand. You can't use a single drop of petroleum without engaging the entire global oil market. Pretty mind boggling.

Anyway, this is good stuff to think about. It is important information for us to know, and its only getting more important. Oil doesn't follow the traditional rules of market dynamics, because it is so integrated. A lot of our natural assumptions about it tend to be false, so we need to keep educated.

-Sam

 

The local lawnmower sales/service place is adamant: stay away from BP and no-name and grocery store gas. They give a list of retailers (brand name) they recommend.

Their recommendation is based on experience.

Funny thing--turns out they're right.

I ignored the recommendations, and went with SuperAmerica gas because it was convenient. My cars ran on it, right? Well, after a full season of SA gas in my lawnmower, the mower got harder and harder to start and finally wouldn't start at all.

I took it in, they cleaned it up, asked me if I used SA gas, I said yes. They said, "Don't." I started using Sunoco (also convenient), and have never had a problem since.

If the base gas is all the same, it must be the additive package. SA gas stopped my lawnmower from working. Sunoco has never caused a problem (and my Subaru Robin engine starts first time every time...).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(abq sfr @ Apr 15 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]423681[/snapback]</div>

Another reason is that gasoline sold in California is formulated differently than that sold in most other states. Because fuel that does not meet California specifications cannot be imported from other states, there often is a supply problem which causes prices to rise, especially during periods that refineries undergo maintenance or switch between winter and summer gas production.

California Energy Commission - Types of Motor Fuel Consumed in California

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 15 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]423717[/snapback]</div>

After looking over this thread, I noticed another thread about using E85. Off topic to this, but relevant since it made me look in the 2007 Owner's Manual (I own a 2005 but downloaded the '07 OM).

Quoting from page 318 of the 2007 OM, "Toyota recommends the use of gasoline that contains detergent additives to avoid build-up of engine deposits.

However, all gasoline sold in the U.S. contains detergent additives to keep clean and/or clean intake systems."

I found the identical quote in the '05 and '06 manuals.

So, it looks like any gasoline with 87 octane is good enough for the Prius as far as Toyota is concerned.

Dave M.