This is why Redline D6 is not the best ATF in Prius

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Former Member 68813, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Well my vocabulary just increased (y)
     
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  2. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    I remember bill nortons first trans change on a low mile G3 and it looked so bad he a few uoas done. There's pictures of a few G3 changes and they looked pretty bad too. A lot worse than what I have seen on a g2.
    Makes sense a lot more torque produced in the G3 MGS harder on the final gearing more wear in the final gearing.
     
    #62 edthefox5, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  3. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    You should "lighten up". It's a car forum.
    Never said it should be used for a G3. Don't even know why Jacek posted about d6 iin a G3 forum.
    But it will work great in a G3 I highly recommend it in fact it's the first thing I'm going to do when I buy a G3

    Concerning your hysteria about the winding's, the jokes on you and me. If u look at any of the G2 trans tear downs it clearly shows both mg1 and mg2 are in sealed separate housings from the sun and differential gear box. The only thing bathed in oil is the gears. Last thing u want is a stator bathed in oil that was used as gear lubricant. Especially with the incredibly strong neodium magnets the mg's use. They would pick up every piece of ferrous metal in the oil. It would be a mess.The motor axle bearings are in the sealed diff housing as the axles protrude into the diff case.The oil pump is on the end of the case on the backside of and driven by mg2. The oil pump is fed by a tube from the diff and is pumped back through another tube into the diff section. The pump input galley has a small non serviceable filter. No oil is allowed near the motors. Don't need it. Sure don't want it.

    The hyperbole concerning the winding's bathed in oil and there's some kind of nefarious interaction with the trans oil that only WS has the secret ingredient is Priuschat fantasy. And will only be found here.

    The trans winding's don't get real hot at all during normal use. If they did they would have a very short life since they are so densely packed together incredibly tight.
    Very efficient hi voltage AC 3 phase Y wound motors. Winding burnout is caused by perfect storm of hi load hot heavy car usually going up steep hill hi speed demand with low hybrid battery charge.
    Driver having trouble keeping up with traffic as they go up steep hill as battery flagged and they floor it. That will do it. Essentially stalling mg2 and it will pull huge current. Huge current goes through the weakest link the windings. That will kill the windings and sometimes catch fire. We have seen many pictures of scorched windings here. Trans fluid will not save the winding's during that event.

    So it is just a discussion about gear oil and the quality of oil you desire. And believe it or not there are high performance gl4 oils on the market that are superior to WS in all aspects.
     
    #63 edthefox5, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Ed, we'll just need to be kept separated, lol.

    Your in-depth essay on the transaxle internals is impressive, but: if Toyota says flat-out to use their proprietary fluid, nothing else, and that alternate fluid could damage the transaxle, I'm not gonna question that. And it seems to me if you're going to advocate otherwise, you have a responsibility to note that your advice is contrary to Toyota's recommendation. And it's not contrary in a positive way, ie, something like more frequent oil changes.
     
  5. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Fair enough.

    On my G2 I bought new I used the product had good no excellent results and will continue to use it. I only recommend what I use and if its a good product. I paid for 2 UOA's and there in the sticky. I'm not talking out of my nice person lol....

    This is such a different car forum. Redline is known as a great product in tuner circles and the Corvette Forum and Fresh Alloy Nissan Forum and Bitog and others. It strikes me so odd to have so much pushback from people who have no specific experiences with the product I'm talking about.

    When I sell my 07 in a few years the prospective owner will be happy I preserved it for him or her. But right now the car is just so ridiculously reliable I cannot see selling it any time soon.
     
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  6. kyoo

    kyoo Junior Member

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    coming from tuner circles as well, I highly advocate red line and once I get my G3 i'll be using D6.

    Mendel, I absolutely understand your position and when you're coming from. In the Evo world, there is some staunch belief Diaqueen, their proprietary gear oil, is the one and only gear oil that will keep the transfer case (for awd) happy. I personally did some virgin oil analyses (VOA), found what kind of additives it uses and also even compared viscosities in "overheat" (140c) temps. It was clear in this case that red line did better in all aspects, and had more of the same additives that Diaqueen had. On top of that, did a test with Amsoil, saw that, while it had a good additive pack, didn't match the high pressure additives that Red Line or even Diaqueen had. Some people have had issues with Amsoil in their transfer cases. No one has ever had an issue with Red Line. I tested Red Line 75w90 gear oil, amsoils severe gear 75w90, diaqueen (sae90), and red line lightweight shockproof when I did this test.

    Not saying Red Line is the only way to go, but just because a manufacturer says one thing doesn't make it the only thing to use.

    How about some VOAs with WS to see what kind of additives it contains? It really helps to see what exactly is in there. There's no secret sauce when it comes to gear oils & fluids, it's just the base stock & additives thrown in, as far as I understand. The amount of additives is important, as well as the base stock of course.

    FWIW, Red Line is listing D6 as an alternative for Toyota WS - I think somewhere else someone said it was not and pulled from their website - idk if that's true or not, but looks like it is as of today.
     
    #66 kyoo, Apr 24, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  7. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    LOL, you came to defend D6 as WS replacement, but you really argue against it. I guess you missed the fact D6 is missing what WS has. Read post #1 again.
     
  8. kyoo

    kyoo Junior Member

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    i read your post, yes - and at the time redline wasn't recommending D6, but now they do - so perhaps a VOA can show if it has changed the formula or added calcium sulfonate?
     
    #68 kyoo, Apr 24, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    They being redline? I don't mean to come across dismissive, just curious.
     
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  10. kyoo

    kyoo Junior Member

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    sorry - should have clarified - yes, redline. i'm really not trying to push redline alone, here, it just happens to be the topic of discussion
     
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  11. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Calcium sulfate is used as a tan mitigation. Acid neutralizer it's why WS is touted as a lifetime fluid.
    Calcium is also a wear agent. Redline D6 is pure base stock ester. Exactly what I want.
    Extremely low gear wear.
    Years ago before I realized that the windings are not exposed to the fluid I was very cautious
    And monitored tha TAN levels. Since then I realized the only thing that sees oil in a g2 trans is the gearbox
    So tan does not concern me so much.
    Look there's nothing wrong with WS but if your just talking GL4 level of use there's much better products out there.
     
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  12. kyoo

    kyoo Junior Member

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    talked to Red Line today to get more information - they said the reason D6 did not originally list WS as one of the fluids it replaces and instead recommended D4 was because D6 was first introduced before substantial testing had been done on Japanese friction materials. Once testing was completed and compatibility was verified, they added WS to the list of fluids it replaces.

    I pressed a little more on the additive packs - he said they are very chemically very similar, are different variants, and both (D6 & D4) contain calcium.

    Side note - RL is happy to answer any questions you may have on any of its products.
     
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  13. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    VOA and UOA clearly say otherwise.
     
  14. kyoo

    kyoo Junior Member

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    didn't your uoa come out better from red line?
     
  15. DigitalNomad

    DigitalNomad Junior Member

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    Bumping this thread. Has anyone done additional testing with Redline versus WS since the last post? My Gen 2 with 70k miles on it is due for an ATF change, all the fine folks here who like to provide data would be most appreciated if you have anything to share. :)
     
  16. meeder

    meeder Active Member

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    I just wondering, why don't just use Toyota WS fluid? It might be a little bit more expensive but it isn't something that you change every year.

    Using the correct fluids is getting more and more critical in modern cars. There are manufacturers where using the wrong engine oil can result in serious engine damage.
     
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  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    For a "data point", the Toyota ATF WS in liters up here, is $9.14 CDN. Not exactly sure what "testing" what entail, with the alternatives. Pour an' pray, lol?
     
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Saaaaayyyyyy....
     
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  19. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    I posted Redline uoa’s in the g2 trans sticky years ago. There’s WS uoa’s too. My Redline uoa’s looked great.
    But like all high performance fully synthetic fluid the tan was creeping up at 5000 miles fully expected that as it has no calcium life pack like WS.

    My bought new 07 Is now at 140000 miles and has been on Redline D6 for 11 years and 130000 miles.
    I run Redline engine oil too that stuff is the shit.
     
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  20. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    Just a single dump and fill over the last 130k?
     
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