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Tit for Tat

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by airportkid, Sep 5, 2006.

  1. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    Is there any act of violence imaginable against the United States so powerful that it would succeed in “teaching us a lesson?†Overwhelming enough that it would succeed in making us accede to whatever its perpetrators demand of us?

    I can’t think of any. Simultaneous "suitcase" H-bombs detonated in Chicago, New York, Washington DC, Atlanta and Des Moines would get our attention, but would be unlikely to make the survivors putty in the perpetrators’ hands.

    In fact, the more horrific the violence, the greater would be our resolve to refuse to be “taught a lesson†or to give in to demands, even if the demands were reasonable.

    But my imagination is limited. It must be, because while no conceivable act of violence against the US would “convince†us, so to speak, so many of us think waging violence against others WILL “teach THEM a lesson,†WILL convince THEM to accede to our demands.

    What makes us think that a method that would not only fail to persuade us but would harden our resistance could possibly persuade others?

    Mark Baird
    Alameda CA
     
    #1 airportkid, Sep 5, 2006
  2. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Terrorism has been an utter and dismal failure for centuries. Yet....it continues.

    Are they just stupid? Are they insane? (Repeating the same action convinced the outcome will somehow be different this time.)

    It couldn't be for political gain or to win the next election. So...why do terrorists keep committing acts of terror?
     
    #2 Godiva, Sep 5, 2006
  3. Schmika

    Schmika New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Sep 5 2006, 10:58 PM) [snapback]314951[/snapback]</div>

    Terrorists continue because, oh so slowly, it does work. Remember, it is the mentality of the oppressor. Now, freedom loving people (yes, like us) tend to think toward the future. We want things to be better for our kids and grandkids. Oppressive dictatorial terrorist types only want what is immediately beneficial to them. A terrorist would rather be IN POWER for a few years, than to plan to be peaceful for thier lifetime, and their families lifetimes.

    And, over time, freedome loviong peoples have tolerated and allowed more and more terrorism and oppressive governments to grow because...well...we are peaceful and would rather not have conflict.

    Terrorists know this. As far as the OP, some of us would agree to ANYTHING if a H-bomb were exploed in one city...others (me included) would give it up only when we are DEAD.
     
    #3 Schmika, Sep 5, 2006
  4. glenhead

    glenhead New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Sep 5 2006, 09:58 PM) [snapback]314951[/snapback]</div>
    What we suffer from here is a complete, utter disconnect in the basic values, thought processes, and core belief systems between Us and Them. They *cannot* understand why We behave and believe the way We do, just as We are intrinsically incapable of comprehending why They act and think the way They do. Once again, the fault is in our shared inherent human nature. Both groups are raised *from birth* to believe and behave one way. The vast majority of human beings are incapable of moving away from the core infrastructure of the belief structure in which they are raised - they think and believe according to their foundational indoctrination, and this causes them to act in prescribed ways. Humans can give lip service to "understanding" why disparate groups act in dimetrically opposing fashions, but without the foundational beliefs it cannot be more than a surface understanding. They believe We are evil, and that unless We believe the way They do, We cannot be allowed to exist (at least in the extremist viewpoint, that which spawns terrorism of any ilk (religious, ecological, reproductive, animal issues, etc.)) We believe that They are simply poor, uneducated hicks, and that all We have to do is show Them the right way to think. Problem is, the way We think is part of what makes Us evil to Them, and it cannot be allowed to exist. The two viewpoints are utterly mutually exclusive. The only way to change the situation peacefully is to change basic human nature, or to somehow have all humans raised with a common belief structure. Unfortunately, even within a common foundational belief, there are those who will eventually find something that offends them, and we're off to the races again.

    By the way, substitute any group of humans for We/Us, and any other group for They/Them. It doesn't matter.

    Addressing the original question - the only thing that will make *all* Americans quit would be complete military subjugation or death - too many of us have too strong a foundational belief of what is Right and Wrong to just give up.
     
    #4 glenhead, Sep 5, 2006
  5. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

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    Bush and cronies may act stupid but they are not. They know and could easily agree with the orignal post that you cannot force a nation into subjigation. It's not about that. It's not about the attack on the WTC. It's about making billions off the military industrial complex. No bid contracts, using then needing to replace armaments, 'misplacing' millions of dollars meant for Iraq, raping our treasury while there are complicit people in power. These people are making their personal fortunes, have multiple passports and homes in foreign countries and don't care one whit about the devistation they are causing. By the end of Junior's reign they will have theirs, and fu**the little people. Still no spell check I see.
     
    #5 MarinJohn, Sep 6, 2006
  6. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    My short answer is 'no.'

    The longer answer actually looks at the resolve of those who are currently and have in the past fought wars. The harder we/they strike, the stronger is their/our resolve. Even if a "lesson" were taight, the attack itself does little more than strengthen the opposition. Schmika's right in that some would cave straigh-out while others would not.

    However, I feel that the true misinterpretation of this thread is that most people imagine something terrible and destructive. But if a non-destruction approaopch were employed, then perhaps I might change my answer to 'yes.' The wise and educated strategist realizes that it is far more beneficial to win without destruction. For example, the United States is currently financially in debt to other countries and dependant on others for natural resources such as oil. If a foriegn country called in all their debts or if an oil-producing country stopped doing business with us. We would be hurting. We would learn the lesson of international dependence which would - again - strengthen our resolve; we would hurt but would never give in.

    By the way, before anyone attacks my theories on strategy, be advised that they are not my theories. I am currently in the middle of my annual re-reading of Sun Tsu "The Art of War." He stresses very early on that the purpose of war is not to destroy but to capture; why would you want to capture something you have to rebuild? Not far afterward, he says that the verocity of an army increases as their emotions rise. Offend the enemy emotionally or physically and you will witness a growth in their opposition.
     
    #6 TonyPSchaefer, Sep 6, 2006
  7. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(glenhead @ Sep 5 2006, 11:24 PM) [snapback]314968[/snapback]</div>
    Well Said ! :)
     
    #7 hycamguy07, Sep 6, 2006
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