Featured Toyota BEV attitude

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Nov 12, 2021.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Many new cars in Japan are already hybrids, and the country has a relatively fast fleet turn over. So such a minimum won't be difficult. EVs will lead to greater pollution reduction in their dense cities though.

    The grid there is of concern for plug ins, which is why the auto industry was able to push hydrogen cars instead of upgrading the grid. At the time, Japan had nuclear power for making hydrogen cleanly. Now they'll offshore the carbon emissions for fossil hydrogen from elsewhere.

    The promise of hydrogen cars hasn't panned out though. So the government made a statement about supporting plug ins. Toyota and allies got them to retract that in days, and now it appears BEVs aren't even mentioned in any discussion for reducing GHG in the car fleet.

    You asked why people should be concerned with Toyota's stance on BEVs. When given an answer, you try to hand wave it away as no big deal.

    Well it seems, I greatly underestimated how much Toyota spends on lobbying. It was nearly seven billion in the US alone.
    Toyota Motor Corp Lobbying Profile • OpenSecrets
    Global corporations can wield a lot of influence over a government.

    Yes, such markets are getting alot of used cars from elsewhere for their needs. They also tend to use a lot of motorcycles and kin for transportation.

    Honda and other motorcycle companies have gotten together to develop a swappable battery standard these smaller vehicles. Honda and others are already selling EV bikes with their own battery formats. A standard one would make deploying battery banks for swapping easier. In electricity deserts, self sufficient ones could be established. Maybe even incorporate them with cell towers, or other sites already on their own power. Trikes and rickshaws using swappables are already in the works. Honda has a side by side ATV concept using them. So small cars like the Tata Nano aren't far off.
    Honda Sets Standard For Japan’s Big Four Battery Consortium
    Honda Reveals More Details About Its Swappable Mobile Power Packs
     
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  2. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    When I was a kid the smog used to get so bad that we were not allowed to leave the classroom to play at recess. It would be so bad you couldn't see the other side of the playground clearly. About like the pictures we see out of Chinese industrial cities today. It was so bad that your eyes burned like you were cutting onions, but there was nowhere to go. Even though the number of cars has doubled we've come a long, long way since then.
     
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  3. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    The only part of the comment that surprises me is admitting the first statistic was low.
    The hand waving thing, that's all you bait, millions billions or trillions take your pic and deal with it. It ain't changing anytime soon, no matter how hard the lobby is against it. Though you could start a new thread about it in the politics forum. good title could be hand waving on the hill.
     
  4. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Oh, the outrage!

    Who do they think they are, LABOR UNIONS?!?!
     
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Your post came across as whatever the amount, it was no concern.
     
  6. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Sorry bout that. I hope this one doesn't give you the wrong impression too.
     
  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    they are a dying Blreed, though not completely dead yet - oddly enough. The latest two years of virus shut downs has put some strength of life back into the labor market.
     
  8. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    Looks like they're about to become a nice money laundering operation for some Congress critters. Congress sends money to the union shops and the shops reciprocate by sending that money back to those generous members of Congress.

    A dollar starts out as yours, is taken from you before you even have it, ends up in the US Treasury where they will let you have it back, but only if you buy something from one of their "associates." The union shop takes some of that money and puts it in Congressman McDirty's PAC. It's a little circuitous to avoid legal complications, but your dollar ends up in McDirty's war chest. Don't you like how creative people can be spending your money?

    Notice that the largest rebates aren't for the best EV, nor are the additional funds dedicated to pushing further EV adoption by doing things like making the credit a refundable credit so middle class and poor taxpayers with small tax liabilities can get the full credit. Nope. The money is allocated to rewarding political allies. As political as this is, this is precisely what's happening with the new EV credits. I feel like it's completely relevant to this forum because politicians are hijacking a good cause to dole out public funds to their allies.
     
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  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Heck Mr Bezos is able to get his political way without unions so, yeah, everybody has their hands in the kitty of corruption.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The proposed changes to the credit make it refundable.
     
  11. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    Good to know. It's difficult keeping up with this bill.
     
  12. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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  13. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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  14. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    "Green" synthetic fuels definitely can be helpful, but I am doubtful toyota is putting up much of an effort in the near term.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-08-31/greener-fuels-could-keep-gas-guzzlers-alive-in-an-electric-world

    I am guessing this is what Toyota is behind, which is good but its probably something at least a couple of decades away. No special announcements of projects in the near term. Green synthetic fuels could use a push from toyota's heavy lobbying in the US and Japan ;-) Toyota is the biggest proponent of this in lobbying in Japan, but they lobby harder for hydrogen subsidies there and here.

    We do have Porsche and Siemens and Exxon Mobil and F1 with a project to have a pilot plant running next year.
    Faux Fuel: Can Chemistry Save Internal Combustion?

    The pilot is in Chile where green electricity is cheap. The cost of the fuel is going to be high but I hope they can figure out how to bring the cost down. The Porsche fuel has 10 hydrocarbons and will burn cleaner in an ICE than gasoline and is a drop in replacement. F1 is still figuring out their formula, but it can be less expensive as engines can be designed for the fuel. Target market is rich people that want green fuels, so they likely can pay for these projects without government subsidies or small ones until costs come down, or governments mandate or subsidize such fuels. Porsche is on board with mainly selling bevs in the future.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It's more of a Team Toyota. It consists of them, a subsidiary, and a car company in which they have a large stock ownership with other partnerships. Yamaha is just motorcycles and small engines. Leaving Kawasaki as probably the only other large member.

    Off the top of my head, I know Yamaha is part of the group with Honda adopting a single battery standard for swappable battery for motorcycles and ilk. Kawasaki might also be a member, but the corporation also includes heavy industrial equipment and vehicles.

    E-fuels might have a role to play with car range extenders. A plug in with 50 to 100 miles of EV range will let most do their daily driving on electricity. With fuel use limited to longer trips, overall costs will still likely be lower even with the higher cost for the e-fuel. Smaller batteries mean the supply can be extended to more vehicles and other uses.

    This solution still needs charging options for those without a personal parking spot. E-fuels can use existing refueling infrastructure, leaving the only hurdle it is use just on the production side.

    But how much better can car sized engines get? I didn't see any company with poor efficient engines on that team list. Toyota's is already a lot better today, but they are approaching the theoretical max efficiency for a piston engine. Emissions can be improved, and the group will be working on biodiesel engines, but the emissions will still be in population areas. PHEV 50+ will help by moving most of the emissions from residential zones. A company sort of needs a good BEV program to get such PHEVs.

    The Prius P does a good job being efficiency focused. The Rav4 P's EV efficiency isn't the best though; better it might get to a 50 mile range rating. The question is how much better a power-split PHEV can get on the EV side. No question about its ICE efficiency. When almost all the driving a car sees is on electric, it is the EV side that becomes more important.

    Small engines need help with emissions. The problem there might have to do with various groups fighting against improvements through. Many of these can go to batteries or cords easier than cars though.
     
  17. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Physics argues it is likely green synthetic fuels will always cost substantially more per kWh than putting the renewable energy inputs directly into a BEV.

    In the shorter run, like carbon capture into basalt in Iceland, those initially well off and green conscious will pay for this costly endeavor. BEV options for the near to mid future are limited for travel in planes and ships and green synthetic fuel accounting for net zero is substantially more legitimate here than current dubious carbon offsets. For smaller land based commuter vehicles, BEVs will be a more economical option for the vast majority of drivers for the foreseeable future.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  19. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    The current best efficient engines are dominated by Toyota, Atkinsons. Hyundai got it but didn't go far, and it is starting to use normal Ottos again.
    All others have improvements (15% to 20% less fuel consumption) to achieve.
     
    #59 telmo744, Nov 16, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    It's entirely possible the same will be true (among legacy automakers) for motor efficiency as well. Based on the tidbits of info we have so far, the mi/kWh for bZ4X will be better than the ID.4 rating.

    As hung up as people get about "Toyota attitude", you would think some would actually consider detail. The resulting hardware & software is still better. We know that is what will end up getting deployed to the masses.

    So what if their approach is different? If you travel to less fortunate countries, you will find lots of small-engine vehicles. As much as we would like all to become BEV right away, it's not realistic. So a ban or pledge with an absolute of all ICE isn't taking the situation seriously. Why can't those use 100% non-fossil-fuel instead? Clean, Renewable, and Carbon-Neutral are the desired outcomes, right?

    In other words, we are witnessing the CARB failure repeat. Rather than focus on goals, focus is on technology. Some never learn from history...
     
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