Featured Toyota bZ4X Specifications Revealed

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Oct 29, 2021.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    17,522
    6,802
    54
    Location:
    South OC So Cal & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Why compare to the Volkswagen product instead of the hyundai-kia products, which will hit U.S. shores (maybe years) before any offering from Toyota. They may undercut Toyota prices - and have apparently, more high tech features.
    Hopefully Toyota foot-dragging hasn't left them too far behind.
     
    #101 hill, Nov 14, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
    iplug and Trollbait like this.
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,071
    3,694
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    I would call it a crossover, but people are calling crossovers SUVs. It has a higher driving position, lots of passenger space, really good AWD, and plenty of power, and towing capacity. It isn't going to take you off road well, but most people buying SUVs aren't going off road anyway.

    The biggest differences between this and a traditional SUV is ground clearance and suspension. The model Y's ground clearance is 6.6" compared to the model 3's 5.5". This is a lot lower than the toyota 4 runners 9.6" ground clearance which is one of toyota's best for going off road. The best selling SUV in the US is the RAV4 with most having 8.4" ground clearance with 8.6" on those higher priced non hybrid trims, but it is far less capable off road than some other toyota vehicles. The bz4x reportedly has 8.3" ground clearance. It should be better off road than a model Y but really I don't think that will be much of its market. The model Y suspension is set for spirited driving but it is not adjustable, so it will be rougher than the bz4x.

    Tesla has responded to high demand and low competition by raising prices and only selling the most profitable long range AWD trims of the model Y. I don't think lack of traditional styling has hurt them. If you order today you won't get your long range model Y until October 2022. I think Tesla will respond to toyota by welcoming it to the Plug-in party. Current Tesla production capacity for all vehicles is 1 million per year. That will increase when Austin and Berlin. are in production. I would think by the time the bz4x is in volume production tesla will respond by selling standard packs and 2wd versions. Rivian that has more traditional SUV styling has air suspension adjustable from 8" for normal roads, to 14" for off road. I would expect that tesla fills a hole in their line up in the next 6 years with a highlander/Lexus RX sized SUV with off road capability option and more cargo space granted by a slightly less aerodynamic rear end. There is room for lots of different crossover choices.
    Tesla Model Y/3 Dominate US BEV Market: January-August 2021

    I think many customers will prefer the efficiency and range of a more aerodynamic design, just as they did with the gen 2 prius. The bz4x does appear more aerodynamic than the rav4.

    I think Toyota does know that their customers really do want BEVs and PHEVs and have to produce them or customers will move to competing companies. I hope the bz4x shows them how much. Lots of space to keep and expand their customer base if they do a good job here.
    US: Toyota Plug-In Car Sales Almost Tripled In Q3 2021
     
    #102 austingreen, Nov 14, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
    iplug, Zythryn and Trollbait like this.
  3. Hicksite

    Hicksite Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2020
    168
    83
    0
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2020 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Limited
    An F1 car never takes sharp turns?
     
    austingreen likes this.
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    17,216
    8,292
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    It's quicker to type, and what makes a car one or the other has always been blurred. In most cases the difference is merely aesthetics. Then even when the vehicle is a true SUV, it sees conditions no harsher than what a crossover does.
     
    austingreen likes this.
  5. drash

    drash Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    1,675
    739
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Not sure if this is an aberration in US metrics for the bZ4X US reveal (Revealed: The All-New, All-Electric Toyota bZ4X - Toyota USA Newsroom) but the battery is slightly larger in the AWD version: 72.8 kWh (versus the 71.4 kWh for the FWD version). Perhaps to make up for the AWD rear motor and extra weight? Manufacturing estimate is 250 miles range for the FWD version and TBD for the AWD version. If I remember correctly, Toyota usually underestimates EPA range, like they did for the Prius Prime. Their Pre-EPA estimate was 22 miles for AER on the Prius Prime.
     
    john1701a likes this.
  6. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    5,349
    3,404
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    My guess would be that the actual battery pack is the same size, but the software is tweaked to allow slightly more of the pack to be used.
    That, or a typo or conversion error happened somewhere.
     
  7. drash

    drash Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    1,675
    739
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Now that I look at it more, you are probably right, a tweak in an ECU somewhere to allow more of the pack to be used. The voltage stays the same.
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,071
    3,694
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    My guess is its a typo on one or both, or specs are in flux for the US version. It doesn't make sense that you would have less of a buffer on the awd car. I do think it is total pack size not usable pack, unless Toyota is underestimating the epa range significantly.
     
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,276
    4,940
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    FWD = battery supplied by Panasonic
    AWD = battery supplied by CATL

    Different suppliers, ever so slight difference with cell capacity.
     
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,071
    3,694
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    That is interesting.
    Toyota bZ4X Debuts In The U.S., Will Go On Sale Mid-2022
    Subaru Introduces Solterra In The U.S. With Range Of 220+ Miles

    Found the link so modified.

    It appears that fwd will have an epa range of 250 miles and awd will exceed 220 miles. Both have things that will help them not lose as much range in cold weather.
     
    #110 austingreen, Nov 17, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,576
    3,824
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Got any confirmation on cell chemistry?
     
  12. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    42,842
    14,320
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    Gah you're right. I was thinking lowest consumption but wrote efficiency. Thanks! I'll fix it.
     
  13. drash

    drash Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    1,675
    739
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    After watching Alex on Autos (
    ) review the T-Sub twin Solterra and reading other reviews here are some clarifications:

    Rear storage behind the rear seats is adjustable from 27.7 ft3 to 30.3 ft3 by sliding the rear deck into a lower slot. Unknown with the rear seats folded. Storage is between the Venza and RAV4.

    There is no frunk

    There is no spare

    There is no rear wiper

    The Solterra is sold in the USA as AWD only and only has the 71.4 kWh battery. I have a sneaking suspicion that the CATL battery is for the Chinese market but has to meet overflow of AWD selection based on Toyota’s CATL agreement (CATL and Toyota Form Comprehensive Partnership for New Energy Vehicle Batteries | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website). They really like CATL’s NCM 811 prism cells and Toyota has probably worked with Panasonic’s NCM 622 to make it close to CATL’s. So they have enough Panasonic to meet the Solterra AWD and bZ4X FWD but maybe not enough to meet bZ4X AWD.


    iPad ? Pro
     
    john1701a likes this.
  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    42,842
    14,320
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    Any pros/cons of the NCM 811 over the 622? Aside from more nickel and less cobalt?
     
  15. drash

    drash Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    1,675
    739
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Size and weight. CATL can produce a 70Ah cell at 700 Wh/L and 300 Wh/kg. Panasonics are noted for longevity and capacity, so Panasonic can produce a 120 Ah or 160 Ah prism cell. I believe Toyota engineers have tweaked the Panasonic chemistry to come up with a good compromise. It must be if they are offering 10% loss over 10 years.

    NCM 811 is also more expensive to produce, but if you swapped the cells in the Prime with CATL you’d get a 70 mile AER.

    Edited to show NCM 811 is more expensive.

    iPad ? Pro
     
    #115 drash, Nov 18, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  16. Aegean

    Aegean Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    287
    124
    0
    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    ----USA----
    Before you rush to buy your new trendy electric vehicle realize that the useful life drops significantly. This means that while a conventional Toyota RAV4 would have a 20-25 year useful life, unfortunately an electric car would be salvaged after 12-13 years when the traction battery goes bad just because the battery replacement cost would be half or more of the used car value at that time. Note that battery would have to be new as a used old battery will not last long anyway as we learned from the Prius.

    For example, a traction battery replacement for a Ford Mustang Mach-E costs $38,111. That is not a typo. I repeat 38k!!!
    HV Battery Replacement Cost | MachEforum - Ford Mustang Mach-E Forum, News, Owners, Discussions
     
    Lightning Racer likes this.
  17. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    42,842
    14,320
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    And then a new market will emerge for cell swap or 3rd party battery replacements (hopefully those are starting now or a few years ago... it'll take nearly a decade to figure out this business and start breaking even. That way, they'll be ready when these cars need replacements).

    This is also what makes Toyota's announcement on the bZ4X important - 90% capacity retention after 10 years. It means your "slow" bZ4X will still be chugging along with higher resale values than other EVs.
     
    drash and john1701a like this.
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    17,216
    8,292
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Hybrid batteries were once 'just get a another car' high in the beginning. Prices came down in time, and now there is multiple businesses out there refurbishing packs for even lower prices.

    This was also a warranty repair for defective battery. The car didn't even get to 2000 miles. Ford probably wanted the entire pack for study. For a car out of warranty, you will only replace the troublesome battery module, possibly even just the bad cell.

    This site, https://parts.lakelandford.com/p/Ford_2021_Mustang-Mach-E/Battery-ASSEMBLY-Drive-Motor-Battery-Pack-Assembly/98561284/LJ9Z10B759A.html, lists the battery to the extended AWD model for $23,648.94. Note that it isn't just the battery, but "A combination of parts including but not limited to the hybrid high voltage battery, hybrid battery tray, housing, cooling components and more." That more likely includes battery management electronics, and other bits that are pricey on their own.
    The warranty helps with resell, but many a Tesla is sitting above that 90% bar after the Toyota's warranty period.
     
  19. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    5,576
    3,824
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    The average lifespan of a car in the US is 13-17 years. I assume the value of the car has dropped to zero by 12 years and 150,000 miles. I have owned two cars for over 30 years, but eventually got rid of them because both the ongoing maintenance and the existence of new technology made them more trouble than they were worth by that time.
     
    hill likes this.
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,276
    4,940
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I believe that is heavily skewed, emphasizing the less common.

    Do you know what the median is ?
     
Loading...