Featured Toyota chief speaks out on EVs

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by MikeDee, Dec 17, 2020.

  1. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Bringing up this incident is stupid beyond belief. Most airplane crashes result in fires and there are over 100,000 gasoline car fires every year just in the US.

    The fact is, hydrogen is safer than natural gas, diesel and especially gasoline, and it's not close. The reasons are, it's hard to ignite, it's hard to mix with enough air to get it to the upper flammability limit, it diffuses rapidly, and it disperses up and away from the source rather than dropping below the source.

    I'd rather have an H2 tank under my seat than a Lithium ion battery, and I don't mind the battery.
     
  2. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Yes, it disperses very easily… but...
    Once mixed, it only needs a small amount of energy to ignite.
    And I quote: Hydrogen's flammability range (between 4% and 75% in air) is very wide compared to other fuels

    Hydrogen Compared with Other Fuels | Hydrogen Tools
     
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  3. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    In the last round of funding there were $39 million for construction of 33 stations, or $1.2M/station. California is also providing subsidies for hydrogen delivery trucks and electrolyzers as well as maintenance payments to stations until they get running at capacity.

    True Zero was one of the larger recipients. so if their cost is $700K then they or someone else is making a big profit on these government grants that are only supposed to pay 50%-80% of construction costs. I think its more likely it is the $700K on top of the $1.2M. If they really only cost $700K they would not have needed a big investment infusion. Of course some stations are more expensive than others and maybe some other stations cost much more, but this is inline with past funding. . In the 2020 report on infrastructure the goal of 64 stations by the end of 2020 (in 2019 analysis) to 58, with 71 in 2022 as the new projection. 8 of these may not make it because of covid, and 3 are currently non operational, but that full 58 should be there sometime in 2021.

    https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2020-09/ab8_report_2020.pdf
     
    #83 austingreen, Dec 21, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    hydrogen as fuel is dangerous in enclosed spaces like garages, indoor parking garages, etc. To make them save they currently need more expensive tanks and safety devices that add to costs. If you don't add this expense up front, a hydrogen leak inside a covered parking garage could easily be set off by another car starting. I believe the 3 manufacturers are currently making them safe, but it does make it harder to drop production costs.
     
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  5. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    But very hard to achieve, and thus very safe.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And yet explosions have happened at hydrogen stations, distribution sites, and hydrogen fuel plants.
     
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  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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  8. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    He brought up many valid points for that market, and the country. It's unfortunate that so many people need to demand target dates, and absolute compliance to get their way. Too many shortsighted people with zero peripheral vision, and no tolerance for anything not contained in their vision. Some solar outfits here want cheap land up north where hardly anyone lives. Pretty light on the transmission lines and infrastructure too. Solar company demands they build it out. This will all come out in time as the market can fund and support it. The absolute sneers I get as a hybrid owner now is quite remarkable. A neighbor asked me why I didn't get with the times, save the planet and buy an ev? One has to wonder about the sincerity of those that never said a thing as cars went from 20 mpg to over 30/40/50 and higher? It's never enough for these people, and their plans hardly ever coincide with reality.
     
  9. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Yes - it's very hard to get hydrogen to a high enough/low enough concentration to ignite, but it's not impossible.

    https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf

    "Approximately one in eight fires responded to by fire departments across the nation is a highway vehicle fire."

    "Each year, from 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths; 1,300 injuries; and $1.1 billion in property loss."

    That's one every 3 minutes.
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I remember seeing a vivid video of a chlorine and hydrogen mix in a balloon. Taken out of a box into UV light, it explodes:


    Bob Wilson
     
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  11. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    I remember doing an experiment in high school. One balloon filled with helium, one with hydrogen, one with a mix of hydrogen and oxygen. Put a flame to each. The helium balloon pops, the hydrogen one pops with a faint after-glow and the hydrogen+oxygen one explodes.

    Without that oxygen mixed in, hydrogen isn't dangerous.
     
  12. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Good thing oxygen is so rare:whistle::whistle::whistle:
     
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  13. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Actually, it is, in this context. Without a containment system of some sort, it's very hard to get hydrogen to the lower explosion limit in air (not enough hydrogen) or to the upper explosion limit in a tank (not enough oxygen).
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It is not difficult at all. That is why fuel cell cars have safety devices, as per my previous post. Cars and stations are safe as long as good safety protocols are in place. For stations and hydrogen production for fuel cells, obviously these were not good enough last year, and we had 2 explosions, a fatality, and hydrogen supply problems on three continents. This will continue to slow adoption of fcv. This adds costs and is a reason that fcv continue to fail to meet goals.

    Alternatively with millions of plug-ins on the road, fires are few and far between. Somehow every plug-in fire is highlighted. Its very safe to have fast chargers in a parking garage, but completely unsafe to do hydrogen fueling there.

    Again, lets not sugar coat this. It is not technically challenging to build these things safely, but it is much more costly than plug-ins and plug-in infrastructure. If people don't spend the money and time explosions happen as they did last year.
     
  15. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Yes, it is.

    Anything dealing with high pressure gas (even inert gasses) or flammable substances has safety devices. Duh!

    And the sky is blue.

    And a number of EV fires, some while on charge. Accidents happen. It's a matter of statistics and the statistics for hydrogen indicate it will be safer than gasoline, if we ever use it.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    We aren't dealing with just a fuel system, but an entire car.
    Go deeper into the report, and you'll see many of those fires had nothing to do with the fuel system. A neighbor died because her tire got overheated and ignited. A truck stuck in traffic with us had a front wheel blow off, and a fire started in the wheel well.

    "Forty-six percent of the items first ignited in highway vehicle fires fell under the category of “general materials” (Figure 5).12 This category includes materials such as tires, insulation around electric wire and cables, trash, and fabric. Specifically, insulation around the electrical wiring or other cables was the most common item to initially ignite, not only within this category but in all highway vehicle fires (29 percent)."

    Most highway vehicle fires start as electrical fires. The concern isn't just about hydrogen leaking out and igniting. It is also what happens when those high pressure tanks heat up in a fire that started elsewhere.
     
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  17. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    They start that way (sometimes) but they rapidly spread to the fuel.

    Have you ever seen a gas car on fire? The heat is astonishing.
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    superchargers don't have to be as ubiquitous as gas stations because gas stations are needed for 98%+ of the driving population. Plus - superchargers are only necessary for long distance drivers, or those living in apartments with no other charging access. Even many of those can use high power wall Chargers L2. So, the author of the article is completely disingenuous - as is attempting to quote it the as gospel.
    .
     
    #98 hill, Dec 21, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
  19. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Interestingly, and I did some math about this, superchargers become largely unnecessary even for long distance drivers as car range increases. I think you can eliminate them entirely if you have a 600 mile range and more ubiquitous 50kW charging. With an 800 mile range, you need nothing but ubiquitous L2.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Your misinformation does not bother this Tesla Std Rng Plus Model 3 owner. With 32,800 miles in my hands, you are welcome to thoughts that have no relationship to my experience. My Marine drill instructor once said, ‘A grain of observation out weights 10 lbs of bovine fecal matter any day.’

    Bob Wilson
     
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