Toyota HSD Diesel in 4 years

It would be cool to see a diesel Prius or other diesel hybrid compact car that had low emissions AND could (while maintaining the warranty) run on nearly pure biodiesel, not wimpy B5 which is all Ford and VW seem to recommend using.

 

Diesel is inherently dirty. The upcoming significant sulfur reduction will allow automakers add the expensive NOx cleansing equipment without worry of having a shortened life due to sulfur build up. That combined with PM filters will allow it to finally be PZEV. But that adds to the cost and reduces horsepower. Diesel supporters aren't happy about that. To make matters worse, biodiesel increases NOx output.

But many years from now, the hybrid system will be so advanced that the much increased use of electricity will allow for the size of the diesel engine to be quite a bit smaller. That means in an odd twist of fate, all those anti-hybrid people now will suddenly have a complete attitude reversal years from now and finally embrace hybrid technology.

With no need for a large engine, the emissions, weight, and sound all get reduced. That's a big deal for diesel. Of course, they'll still have the temperature issue. Diesel runs best hot. Biodiesel depends on heat even more. Having a tiny engine would allow it continue running more often. But with the popularity of the plug-in feature, cold engines could become the norm. That isn't as big of a deal for gas as it is for diesel. So the way history unfolds over the next few years could be very interesting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 19 2006, 09:13 AM) [snapback]288611[/snapback]</div>

The fuel needs to kept warm, if it's biodiesel, so it doesn't gel. It also used to be somewhat harder to start the engine when it's cold, but that's no longer an issue.

But to say diesel engines run best hot is, weird. All engines run best when hot. I think Opel already has a hybrid diesel ready to hit the market in europe, so Toyota needs to play catch up over there.

 

Old disels needed to heat up for quite some time before they would run. Something about a glowing wire used as ignition. Now with direct fuel injection I'm not sure it's true any more? does anyone know?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Jul 19 2006, 10:52 AM) [snapback]288655[/snapback]</div>

It was a glow plug. It's still used in modern diesels, but the start time has been cut to the time it takes a regular gasoline engine to start up.

And diesels produce much, much less CO2 than gas engines. And I seem to recall that's important somehow. Something about global warming. So more diesel is not a bad thing at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 19 2006, 06:13 AM) [snapback]288611[/snapback]</div>

I recall several (18?) years ago an article in a magazine (Car and Driver?, Road&Track?) about the Frankfurt Auto Show. Among the usual Ferraris, Porsches, ALFAs, and others, was the VW New Beetle display showing a tiny 2 cylinder diesel driving a generator which was electrically connected to small wheel mounted electric motors. Another was BMW display with a static diesel running on leftover food, mostly veggies being fed in to a grinder/liquifier and thence to the fuel tank of the motor.

I was SO disappointed later, when I bought a VW New Beetle, to find that no such biodiesel-electric option existed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 19 2006, 09:56 AM) [snapback]288660[/snapback]</div>

Without the addition of cleansing equipment and a filter, diesel is indeed bad. You cannot just dismiss the importance of NOx (smog-related) and PM (soot) emissions as well as the PZEV rating. But that statement certainly tried.

 

Diesel produces more CO2 per gallon than petrol (about a third or so more) but since you end up using much less, the overall emissions are lower. And global warming is far more important than smog in California.. so I'd say we need a diesel hybrid It would be spectactularly economical, surely. The hybrid system ought to allow the diesel to operate in a very economical way.

Peugot have done one, it gets about 70mpg (UK) which isn't all that great, and it's a smaller car. I'm sure the emissions would be worse than the Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(molgrips @ Jul 19 2006, 12:39 PM) [snapback]288735[/snapback]</div>

When the bluetec makes it over in 2 years (or is it next year) and the 50 state TDIs (late next year) then it's easy to say that diesel will be nearly as clean as a gasser, but more importantly, it'll pump out less CO2. And based on the information that seems to come out every day about global warming, that's very important.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 19 2006, 11:47 AM) [snapback]288739[/snapback]</div>

But we are not comparing diesel to gassers. We are comparing diesel to hybrids. The hybrid still has a CO2 advantage.

And since "bluetec" still doesn't actually deliver emissions as clean as PZEV, I fail to recognize your implication as a truly competitive choice.

 

Forget diesel. I'd like to see a hybrid with a wankel or even a small turbojet engine. With the electric available to do all the pushing at low speeds, it really unlimits the available technologies that could be used to provide more mechanical and electical power.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 19 2006, 01:04 PM) [snapback]288758[/snapback]</div>

Nyet! But thanks for playing.

There are Diesels available in Europe which produce the same (or less) amount of CO2 emissions as a hybrid Prius. Now imagine the possibilities for a diesel hybrid. Something like the Accord Diesel that's currently now available in the UK, in a hybrid diesel version, would not only be clean in terms of particulate, but more importantly, produce less CO2 than a gas hybrid.

 

I thought rotary engines were uneconomical because they are basically two-stroke... Something to do with the timings of the various strokes? Don't know for sure

There are no diesels available in the UK with CO2 emissions less than the prius. There's the tiny Toyota Aygo 1.4 diesel, which really is a supermini city car, and produces 109g/km versus 104g/km for the Prius. It should get nearly 70mpg though in general use though, and about 84 on the open road! (UK mpg, that is)

Jonnycat26, are you talking about the 'three litre' cars tat they make in places like Germany?

Hybrids sell far less well over here, because for years if we wanted an economical car we'd buy a small one (smaller than you can get in the US) which is not at all weird or strange.. or a diesel. Small minivans etc are quite popular here, and they're almost all diesel. Otherwise, they'd cost a fortune to run.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(molgrips @ Jul 19 2006, 01:48 PM) [snapback]288805[/snapback]</div>

No, I was thinking of a Citron (or was it Puegot). I saw it on the BBC listing of greenest cars.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(molgrips @ Jul 19 2006, 12:48 PM) [snapback]288805[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for chiming in. He absolutely loves to ignore the word "competitive" in his arguments.

Yes, of course those options & configurations are possible. But will loading up a diesel with a hybrid system and all the emission hardware really be able to compete with the upcoming generation of gas hybrid?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 19 2006, 01:57 PM) [snapback]288817[/snapback]</div>

The better question is, will a hybrid+gas system be able to compete with a diesel+hybrid system? You love to ignore the mileage benefits of diesel.