Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' in SD

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

I saw Brian Williams on NBC news tonight with their version of this. I was surprised that they showed a clip of the news conference and then had this guy on that discussed Toyota's difficulty in reproducing any of these runaway events, the likelihood that Toyota may be correct that it is not a software problem, and he thought that some of Toyota's mechanical fixes seemed logical. He closed by saying that it could very well be caused by what most people did not want to talk about, "driver error", especially those 60 years and older, including Mr. Sikes.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

Try "fraud"! But I guess that could be interpreted as an error.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

As a 69 year old I resemble that remark. Driver error is a distinct possibility, especially someone with 50 years of ingrained driver habits switching to a new driving experience, old habits die hard, but old people die easy.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

I think certainly a fair number of these incidents are driver error. I don't know about fraud, as that would imply intentional lying, but I think some people honestly beleive they hit the right pedal when they didn't.
I also wonder in some of the cases, if it wasn't some people's first time driving a vehicle with a laser/radar controlled cruise control. So they are cruising along on the highway at say 70, and don't notice that their speed drops slowly as the car/truck/SUV in front of them slows, maybe to 60, all the sudden that car moves over or exits, and they suddenly accelerate to 70 MPH, without touching the gas pedal. Many people might not make the connection and think the car was driving itself. I know when I have let visiting family drive my wife's car, which has this feature (unfortunatley not availible on my 2004 Prius), they have been shocked at the sensation.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

Sikes car didn't have "radar controlled cruise control". Sikes has a record of fraud.
I vote fraud.
This all happened -before- the third gen came out.
It was a simpler time. (as in simpletons driving)

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

What error or combination of errors can you imagine that would result in the observed behavior? I just can't fathom it. Look especially at the resolution, the cops told him to hit the brakes fully, use the emergency brake, and turn the car off. That 'fixed the problem'.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

I didn't mean in this particular case, I beleive I said something about "some of these cases."

People turn on the cruise control without realizing it. Years ago, you used to be able to leave your cruise control on, and even when you shut off the car and started it back up, the cruise control would still be powered (not set at a speed to be clear). I left the cruise control on in my Civic for years and years, as I use cruise reguarly to save gas and mostly to keep from speeding -- as much. No car I have driven in like the last 8 or 9 years lets you do that anymore, so that you can't accidently set the cruise the next time you get in the car. Or the next time someone else gets in the car.

We litigate all kinds of stuff out of existance in this country. Look at the Sienna owners suing because when you get a 4WD Sienna it has run flat tires, which wear out faster, are more expensive and harder to locate in an emergency. Similar suit against BMW. Look at a couple people are suing Toyota for the smart key system, because they left their car running and got carbon Monoxide poisening or a family member died. Ford was sued for a bronco's Fiberglass roof colapsing in a roll over accident when a family was speeding and driving around traffic in the breakdown lane.

And there are plenty of cases of people hitting the wrong pedal, thinking they are hitting the brake and accidentally hitting the gas. The car starts moving, because they are pressing the accelerator, they panic and press the "brake" (which is actually the gas pedal) even harder so they crash thru stores, gas pumps, people, etc. Happens all the time. Just happened near here, some 80 or 90 year old woman was visiting a friend/family member in a nursing home, and hit the wrong pedal. The car launched into the day room, killed 2 people, injured more.
Same thing happens when people think they put the car in D, but they put it in R or visa versa, and then press the gas and go the wrong way. Very common. Many of the absolutedy deny their foot was on the wrong pedal or that they put the car in the wrong gear. Even in the face of evidence.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

Considering that only a tiny fraction of the Prius population -- a single trim level of a partial model year at the time of this fiasco -- had this feature, it seems unlikely that any significant number of the reports would have come from these cars unless there was a very strong link.

Note also that SUAs in general are heavily weighted to parking lots and other low speed situations below the minimum CC operating speed. So if radar CC is a factor at all, it should stand out from the rest like a really sore thumb.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

operator error is a cause, sometimes not the only cause, in most accidents on land ,sea and air, even the best make errors . Built , designed and operated by yes humans.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

Brakes can make 2-3x the peak power of the motors.
They will always "beat" the engines/engines if you fully apply them.
Just look at braking numbers vs acceleration numbers- 60-0 maybe 150 feet vs 400-500 feet 0-60.
This is just like the Audi problems in the 1980's-folks were hitting the gas instead of the brakes-running through their garages/hitting people etc.
Nothing new here.
I think older people are over represented in these episodes-read that somewhere.
Of course some are pure scams-and some are the carpet blocking the accel open.
The brakes will always "win" just stand on them.Don't gently apply them-they will overheat and be less effective.
Charlie

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

But that doesn't explain this case. Using the wrong pedal for 20 minutes is not plausible. And the brake lights were observed by those behind him.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

It's quite possible to have feet on BOTH pedals at the same time. If the brake pedal is applied very lightly, the brake lights will light without much braking at all.

And he was being told to turn off the car, put it into neutral, etc which he refused to do until the patrol car caught up to him.

I can't think of any plausible explanation other than fraud, possibly an attempt to get a free car or $$ out of Toyota.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

I think the fact that it is stil quite rare makes it more likely to have/cause problems for people.

Most of the "runaway" cars problems I have seen on the news and such have not been in a parking lot but on the roadways and highways. And I beleive I said I was wondering whether some of the problems were related to the CC, not all or even most, but some.

Yeah, here is the thing. I am driving along and car won't stop?
1) pull gas pedal up with foot in case it is stuck
2) brake
3) E-Brake
4) shift into neutral
5) turn car off

Is this the guy who refused to shift into neutral because he thought the engine would blow up? If so, first off, totally without merit. But let's say he didn't know that, and had the wrong impression he could blow up his engine that way. OK, if I or you are driving along, and we are in fear for our lives, and we are told one way of resolving the situation and bringing the car to a halt, and making sure you and your passengers are alive and unharmed could possibly blow up the car engine. Show of hands, who does not shift the car into neutral? Let's see let's weigh this out, I can either ensure my family's safety at the risk of damaging my car, or I can continue to put both the car and my family's lives in danger? Hmm, let me think about that one for a bit!?!?!?!?

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

Our 2004 to 2009 Prii are equipped with a brake override of the accelerator. This and the fact that the post incident inspection revealed no malfunction clinches the conclusion (for me) that Sikes knew what he was doing and was creating this "emergency". The only way he could do it would be to alternate between the brake and the accelerator. He could have stopped at any time and did when told to.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

Shifting into neutral in a Prius at >70MPH with the ICE running WOT would require the MG's to RAPIDLY reverse direction and then accelerate to an equal RPM but in reverse direction in order to produce a "neutral" output from the CVT/PSD.

Even if that were accomplished quickly there would undoubtedly be a brief period of SEVERE braking at the front, perhaps enough to "flip" the Prius.

Sikes may have known more about the Prius drive train, CVT/PSD,
etc, than some of you seem to know.

And then there is the question as to whether the MG's can spin fast enough in "reverse" direction to full counter an ICE at WOT, 5500RPM, bring the CVT/PSD output shaft to "idle".

Anyone tried that...?

70MPH, WOT and let the ICE "wind up" and then suddenly shift to neutral...?

Afraid something might break or "flip"...?

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

MG2 would not need to reverse unless you want to go backwards and it certainly wouldn't reverse to full speed.

MG1 wouldn't instantly reverse either. The car in your example is going at 70mph. MG1 would change speed gradually in keeping with the speed of the car and the ICE. I'm not sure that MG1 would reverse at all. If ICE is at max rpm MG1 may speed up. The bottom line is that it would not be trying to change rpm instantly

I suspect that if the MG1 reached max rpm in neutral, an override would slow down the ICE regardless of an accelerator input calling for WOT. For that matter, that is probably the first thing that happens.

Doesn't sound to me like anything that would cause a car to flip.

 

Re: Toyota Offers Preliminary Findings From Technical Field Examination of Alleged 'Runaway Prius' i

The Audi 5000 was ruined because of pedal placement and high heeled shoes. Numerous cases of sudden acceleration were reported. People were swearing they were pushing down on the brake as hard as possible but the car just went faster until they collided with the nearest solid object, swimming pool or mother-in-law.