Toyota, others ask for 70% increase in pollution, NOx

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by Troy Heagy, Oct 10, 2015.

  1. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    I'm not surprised. I'm sure VW is not the only company using "creative accounting" to pass the tests. In the past Volvo, GM, Honda, and Ford were caught by the EPA, and I think they're about to get caught again.

    I WAS surprised to learn hybrids are harder to pass because when the engine is off, the catalytic converter cools & stops neutralizing the NOx and CO.

    "Despite the cloud cast by the Volkswagen scandal, automakers are proposing that they be allowed a 70 percent increase in the nitrogen oxides their cars emit..... .....The automakers are essentially conceding what outside groups have said for some time — that the industry cannot meet pollution regulations when cars are taken out of testing laboratories."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/business/automakers-ask-europe-for-leniency-in-emissions-testing.html?_r=1
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    don't give it to them!:mad:
     
  3. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Refer them to Tesla.
     
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  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Oops, turn the squelch back up a notch.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i wouldn't be surprised to see eu cave on this, love affair with soot covered buildings, black lung, the whole dick van dyke chimney sweep thing, very romantic.
     
  6. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Here's are the NOx standards

    Euro V Diesel: 180mg/km or 0.288g/mile
    Euro V Gas: 60mg/km or 0.096g/mile

    New Euro VI Diesel: 80mg/km or 0.128g/mile
    New Euro VI Gas: no change

    For comparison, EPA standards for NOx is 0.05g/mile

    Euro 6 emissions standards: what do they mean for you? | Auto Express


    There's a table at the end of the article with the Euro I to Euro VI numbers. Diesels have always had a more lenient requirement up to Euro V.
     
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  7. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    I don't see any corroboration of your comment that hybrids are having trouble, in that article, which I presume that article was talking about diesels.

    Certainly Prius hybrid does not have much opportunity to cool off the converter. Plug-ins PHEV's maybe.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Uh no. This is just another OP b*llshit grasping at straws. Nonsense and a fraud.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  9. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Every workday morning I park the Prius in downtown St. Pete FL. Every workday evening I return to a car covered in a very fine black soot. This is the same fine soot taking permanent residence inside my lungs...and I'm supposedly living in a cleaner than average location. I betcha it has to be worse in Boston and every other city with dense inner city traffic.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i've never noticed any, but florida is a bastion of live and let live. you don't even have emissions testing, do you? massachusetts is a well regulated, tightly run ship, that has the welfare of its citizens as a core value. it's a very nice place to live. (except in winter, when i come down to breathe your soot :cool:)
     
    #10 bisco, Oct 10, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    How far are you parked from:
    • Mosaic Fertilizer, LLC's Riverview
      • ". . . Under the Mosaic Permit, the facility also is required to eliminate the use of fuel oil at the plant, except during periods of natural gas curtailment or disruption, . . . "
    • Tampa Electric, Big Bend Station
      • "This facility consists of four fossil fuel-fired steam generators . . . "
      • Ajax Paving Industries No. 6
      • Harsco Minerals
    The reason I ask is the EPA and Florida have a plan to address problems with these areas:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Are you a Florida government employee? The reason I ask is I don't want to ask if you are forbidden to use the phrase "global warming."

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    There are countless posts pointing out the tolerances at which Prius fires up the engine, specifically for the task of cleansing emissions. Just by myself, I've contributed 100's over the past 15 years in threads where the precise coolant temperature is discussed. Heck, there are even videos showing it. That effort to keep the catalytic-converter hot is a heavily discussed topic.... no surprise for any regular reader.

    Toyota has done an excellent job of heat retention, making sure that PZEV emission rating for Prius is well earned. Any owner with an aftermarket device (like Scangauge or Torque) can easily confirm that's the case.
     
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  13. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Across the bay in Pinellas county about 20 km away. The Big Bend station is one old plant that must be running in order to provide seawater flow for the huge Desal facility right beside it. As for the fine particulate, that is nearly all coming from the diesel busses and other vehicles operating in downtown St. Pete. As for the fertilizer facility, I'm willing to bet the depletion of the phosphate mines east of Tampa will curtail their operation. One pollution reduction technique is to run out of materials to process.
     
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  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Some of the worst pollution I've ever experienced has been downwind of facilities in Oklahoma. But you drive a few miles and you're out of the stink. But that was not true in Riverside CA in April 1972.

    I was driving my 1966, VW Microbus and taking a clover leaf when my eyes teared up worse than the Marine Corp 'gas chamber' and pepper gas. I was blinded but had a t-shirt and water to wipe my eyes. I survived.

    Personally, I think every VW employee and executive who participated in this fraud should be relocated to Peking or the worst emissions city in China. I would also send every SOB who defends VW to spend time visiting them. It is past time for 'reality training.'

    Bob Wilson
     
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  15. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    The "hybrids are more difficult to meet emissions" came from an Autoline interview with the Volt's lead engineer
    You're too lenient. I think they should be sentenced to JAIL for the crimes they committed. On the flip side, we should also keep things in environmental perspective:

    SUV emission limit==0.1 g/mile NOx
    VW's dirty cars emit 0.4 g/mile according to the EPA
    Heavy duty trucks == 40 g/mile for every 100hp (so a 1000hp truck is allowed to emit 400 g/mile)

    The REAL polluters are not compact cars like the Jetta. They are the giant freight trucks. And also diesel trains (they spit visible black smoke from their stacks). These things emit hundreds more grams of NOx
     
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  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We will have to agree to disagree about this:
    The simple reason is called 'net payload':
    • 200 lbs - single occupant Jetta
    • 58,000 lbs - fully loaded, 18 wheeler
    The Jetta efficiency:
    • 200 lbs / NOx released equal to 18 wheeler
    • 58,000 lbs / NOx released equal to 18 wheeler
    The 18-wheeler provides food, materials, and useful stuff far in excess, 58,000/200 ~= 290 times the value, of a single, 200 lb human foolish enough to buy a Jetta for their their commuting car.

    We're talking more than two orders of magnitude. I'm OK with an 18-wheeler, a loaded bus, a train, or freighter because the ratio of useful load to NOx provides full value. But it is that 200 lbs, say you in a Jetta, no. Then you and your Jetta is (and remains) a waste.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #16 bwilson4web, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
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  17. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    So true Bob, my first thought as well. Way, way back in the push for ride-sharing days, the mpg theory was mpg per rider mile. So a 20 mpg car carrying four people was far more efficient than a single person driving a 40 mpg car.

    Here's an obvious plug from the industry, and it purports to show how much cleaner the freight trucks are now. I have no idea what the real numbers are, but they haven't stayed put either.

    Trucking | Diesel Technology Forum
     
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  18. Blu-ray

    Blu-ray Blizzard Brigade #215

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    I live in the Tampabay area. Specifically between Town N Country and Oldsmar. I live on canals which go to the bay. I've been in the bay area since 1998. We USE to have emissions testing here. I wish they would bring it back. So many of these nasty cars need to get pulled off the road. We have smoggy days here. It's not pretty. Nothing near as bad as LA was/is. But yeah, we have some pretty bad days.

    The TECO plant in Apollo Beach which is right near where my cousins owned a house on the bay and could see the smoke stacks. The TECO plant burns coal. They always had black soot issues. If it didn't rain for awhile it would build up and you could sweep it. I'm hoping they've improved on their burning from a decade ago.

    Florida has some really rich and diverse wildlife, too bad we don't protect it better by regulating polluting industries more so than what we do.
     
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  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Are you referring to just diesels here? For every diesel seen polluting there are at least 10 gasoline ones dumping nasty, invisible stuff in the air.
     
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  20. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    So therefore in the OP, when you suggested "hybrids" were having emissions issues, you were NOT actually referring to hybrids, but Plug-in Hybrids, and specifically those made by GM (Volt).

    Suggests to me Toyota is way ahead of the competition re: hybrids. Prius seems to get about 5-10 MPG better than the other equivalent cars, and it is near zero emissions. The others can't match MPG or emissions.
     
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