Toyota Prius proves a gas guzzler in a race with the BMW 520d

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by C.RICKEY HIROSE, Mar 15, 2008.

  1. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    GM sticks to the PZEV list.

    DRIVECLEAN.CA.GOV - Clean Vehicle Search

    :)
     
  2. clett

    clett New Member

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    Because the biofuel for diesel engines is vastly more efficient than the biofuels for gasoline engines.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Replying to a bunch of things here.

    The HSD in the Prius is an electronic CVT, meaning it behaves like a CVT by controlling input from the engine and MG2, but it doesn't have the gears, cones, bands, torque converter, etc of a standard CVT or automatic. Mechanically, it is slightly more complicated than a clutchless one speed manual. If a manual trans can be put into it, you likely couldn't do better. More likely, most will get worse economy.

    PZEV appears to be better than SULEV, but CARB and EPA had differing designations for pollution levels(ex. PZEV was CARB only). Maybe they have come to an agreement over it with the new EPA testing. Not sure, but manufacturers do make cleaner vehicles for CARB states.

    In order to get SULEV or better in deisels, the sulphur content has to drop. It will destroy cats. Just like all the lead paint on shelves didn't suddenly become leadless, it takes time for the sulphur to get flushed all the pipelines and gas stations across the country.
    Even then the law doesn't require diesels to be that clean. Hopefully that will change with their increasing numbers.
    Diesel engines have an advantage in biofuel technology over petrols. They don't need conversion for the currently available fuels, and because any alcohol requires distillation which is energy intensive. The basic biodiesel process is done at room temp. There is the issue of slashing rain forest and using food, but applies to alcohols too. Research is ongoing with both to get away from that.
     
  4. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    then invest in bio diesel and not diesel engines
    you can use bio diesel in diesel cars only these common rail diesels don't run wel on bio diesel of the car engine management is not changed and if there are some parts replaced!

    lets not do diesels but invest in modern bio diesel engine's then!
     
  5. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Thanks for posting that, PZEV vehicles don't show up in the federal test certification reports. That said, PZEV seems to be equivalent to SULEV, not SULEVII. When you look up the EPA cert ID code from the Cobalt (8GMXV02.2030) for example, it comes up as SULEV. As I recall PZEV is basically SULEV with extra stuff to control evaporative emissions, so at least there are no emission while parked.

    Its nice to see that at least GM has a few PZEV models, too bad no SULEVII or T2B2. What bothers me more is their smallest car, the Aveo is T2B5/ULEVII, and the Malibu and Aura Hybrids are T2B5/LEVII. The Vue is T2B4.

    Its kind of sad how dirty GMs hybrids look next to the competition:

    2008 Chevy Malibu Hybrid vs. 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid
    CO2 (g/mi): 325.48 vs. 258.47 (25.9% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
    CO (g/mi): 0.6 vs. 0 (inf (>6X) higher) Poison / Toxic
    NOx (g/mi): 0.05 vs. 0.01 (400% or 5X higher) Smog / Acid Rain, breathing problems
    NMOG (g/mi): 0.037 vs. 0.006 (517% or 6.2X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer

    2007 Saturn Vue Hybrid vs. 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid
    CO2 (g/mi): 338.0 vs. 292.93 (15% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
    CO (g/mi): 2.4 vs. 0.1 (2300% or 24X higher) Poison / Toxic
    NOx (g/mi): 0.04 vs. 0.02 (100% or 2X higher) Smog / Acid Rain, breathing problems
    NMOG (g/mi): 0.062 vs. 0.006 (933% or 10.3X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
    HC-NM+NOX-COMP (g/mi): 0.05 vs. 0.01 (400% or 5X higher) composite of main smog ingredients

    Rob
     
  6. finman

    finman Senior Member

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    Do you or anyone you know drive one of those listed...specifically one of the 5 GM models listed? How do they differ from a normal car?

    How do they know to buy one of these? Is the dealer touting this, are they readily available and sold in all states? Or is it like the Prius and no advertising needed? :) Are they selling every one they make, huge waiting lists?

    Does the general public see this as a choice? does it cost more to get one of these super cars?

    I'd sooner walk than own a PZEV GM car, but I'm inclined to judge on the merits of earning my car business with a quality product. Personal opinion, understand...YMMV. :rolleyes:
     
  7. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    Actually, PZEV seems to be SULEV II with a few extra emission controls on top of it, to control evaporative emissions, as you said.

    Clean-burning, Efficient Cars

    That said, it's a shame Toyota doesn't have more vehicles that meet PZEV standards. They're lagging behind GM, at least in terms of conventional vehicle emissions.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  9. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Well, I stand corrected. The Cobalt, at least the base 2.2L version is pretty impressive on the numbers. Its right in there with the T2B2 Civic and Jetta. Not sure why it is listed as SULEV in the federal emissions certifications report so that it doesn't show up when you search for SULEVII rated vehicles. It makes it a little more puzzling to me why GMs hybrids are so poor emissions wise?

    Rob
     
  10. Per

    Per New Member

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    I have a CVT, and I am not that impressed. A manual transmission allows you control over the engine RPMs. Lower RPMs mean better mileage, even if you have to slow down.
     
  11. Per

    Per New Member

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    The biggest issue right now is that diesel is about 25% more expensive than regular gas.
     
  12. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    if you use a cvt correctly ( so not having a heavy food and keep it reffing up ) you can keep the engine in a lower rpm then with a manual.


    highway manual = 2700rpm
    highway cvt = 2000 rpm or less.
     
  13. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    That's kind of absurd... the highway rpm of a manual is going to depend on gearing, and nothing else.

    I've seen cars turn as low as low as 2000 at 70 with an automatic/manual. At 2700, most cars would be droning rather unpleasantly.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There might be a difference between the CARB and EPA rankings. PZEV vehicles seem to only available in CARB states. Or it could just be a typo, or the report is using the 2007 standards.

    Does anyone know what exactly is that clean city ranking the EPA also uses? The site speaks of it as a way to improve air quality, but the cars have rankings of 2. Is it a different ranking system, or just a BS loop hole to make cheap, dirty fleet vehicles?
     
  15. duanelaugh

    duanelaugh New Member

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    Another Prius hating web site?

    I've owned my Prius for two years and have averaged 48.9 with nothing special in my driving habits. And I bet half the cost of the BMW. They must have had the Prius loaded with 5 200 pounders and the BMW empty.

    BMW Beats Prius in MPGs - GoodCleanTech
     
  16. bat4255

    bat4255 2017 Prius v #2 and 2008 Gen II #2

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    Re: Another Prius hating web site?

    1st. question, What is the MSRP on the BMW? 40K+?
    2nd. question, Were the on the autobahn during the test?

    I do believe the report. The Prius mileage figures are higher for city driving than highway. This would not be the first time a higher priced vehicle, got better mileage than a smaller standard car.

    Why is it, a late '90's full sized GM product (30+ on the highway), can get better mileage than a late 90's midsized GM product (high 20's)?

    I have seen many 30K-40K vehicles get better mileage than 15K vehicles, they are just built different. The less expensive usually does better in traffic (stop and go), while on the open road @ 80+ the higher price luxury models can have better mileage. The smaller power plants in smaller vehicles are working at close to maximum, while the higher power plants are in cruise configuration, working a lot less.

    Another example would be my 650 Burgman (maxi-scooter)
    Mileage is close to the same weather I'm doing 55 mph, or 80 mph (50 MPG)
    The 400 Burgman at 55, gets 70 MPG, at 80 mph it's 50 MPG

    I have always figured, all it takes is money.
    My Opinion
     
  17. Spectra

    Spectra Amphi-Prius

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    Re: Another Prius hating web site?

    The article describes the BMW as ...
    "The BMW 520d with a 2.0-liter diesel engine and regenerative braking"

    If it's powered by a diesel engine (no mention of electric motor or battery), then what does the braking "regenerate" ??? :pound:
     
  18. Squint

    Squint New Member

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    Here's another point to ponder. Why are diesel fanboys so threatened by hybrids? Is it because their non-gasser niche is threatened by vehicles who do just about everything that differentiates them from gas vehicles better? They don't feel special anymore?
     
  19. clett

    clett New Member

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    From the comments on this thread, I don't think it's the diesel fanboys that are feeling threatened!
     
  20. Squint

    Squint New Member

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    Ironic that you should say so since this thread started in response to a rather elaborate rigged contest between a diesel and hybrid. I don't see hybrid owners going to that much trouble or subterfuge. Probably because the facts are on their side.
     
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