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Toyota Reveals Concerns on Prius Conversions

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by priusFTW, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. priusFTW

    priusFTW Gen III JBL non Nav

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    http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/780

    Click the link above to read the full document along with other observations. Here is the Memo copied from that link:


    FULL TEXT OF TOYOTA'S MEMO "PHEV CONVERSIONS"
    Charles E. Ing, Director, Government Affairs Toyota Motor North America

    Both with respect to safety and emissions, PHEV converters should
    comply with existing standards governing second stage manufacturers,
    if applicable, and, NHTSA and EPA should be required to establish new
    regulations for certification of conversions of used vehicles. In
    other words, the product liability and warranty risk, should be
    assumed by the converter. The government should assure that there be
    no degradation in emissions and vehicle safety before it provides
    taxpayer incentives.

    Following are the reasons why:

    Based on Argonne National Lab testing of two converted Prius hybrids
    to PHEVs -- the Hymotion and Energy CS PHEV conversions -- both
    generate significantly higher NOx and total HC emissions when
    compared to a stock Prius. This is particularly evident after cold
    start, when Prius emissions are virtually zero. (See the attached
    chart.) This raises the question of whether the government should be
    paying people to make their cars dirtier?

    The primary problem with plug-in hybrid electric conversions (PHEV
    conversions) is that the modifications to the factory-built vehicle
    take the vehicle out of compliance with the Federal Motor Vehicle
    Safety Standards ("FMVSS"). After-market converters do not perform
    crash testing to certify that the converted vehicle meets or exceeds
    FMVSS. The risk is highest in terms of rear-end collisions because
    these vehicles are generally converted by adding a substantial number
    of batteries in the trunk or cargo section of the vehicle.

    General potential risks are as follows:

    Increased Risk of Fire:
    Toyota equips its hybrid vehicles with nickel metal hydride
    batteries. PHEV conversion vehicles are typically equipped with
    either lithium-ion batteries or lead-acid batteries. Lithium-ion
    batteries carry a higher risk of fire. Toyota recently decided
    against using lithium-ion batteries in the next generation of hybrid
    vehicles due to concerns that these batteries can overheat and catch
    fire. Similarly, lead-acid batteries contain sulfuric acid which can
    escape the battery and can burn occupants in an accident.

    Other Increased Risk of Injury in an Accident:
    Because the converted vehicles are not tested for compliance with
    FMVSS 301, which deals with fuel tank integrity and related
    crashworthiness issues, there is a risk that the aftermarket
    batteries can compromise the fuel system and/or crashworthiness. This
    can happen due to the composition of the batteries as well as the
    added weight and placement of the batteries in the trunk/cargo area.
    The mass of these batteries can often extend into the zone of the
    rear bumper, increasing safety concerns. These added batteries can
    become projectiles in an accident.

    Adverse Effect on Rear Suspension:
    Because these batteries often weigh hundreds of pounds in total and
    add weight to the rear of the vehicle, the rear suspension and
    handling and stability of the vehicle is compromised, increasing the
    risk of accident.

    Compromised PowerTrain/Voiding of Warranty:
    In order to add the extra battery capacity, converters have to hack
    into and modify the software in the hybrid's Engine Control Module.
    Such modification may damage the battery pack and engine; it also
    voids the express warranty provided by Toyota at the point of sale.

    Increased Risk of Electrical Shock:
    PHEV conversions are generally used with a home outlet. However, we
    are aware of no testing (such as compliance with UL standards) done
    to ensure compatibility between these batteries and home electrical
    wiring. This poses a risk of electrical shock and even fire.

    Removal of Spare Tire:
    Many converters use the entirety of the trunk and cargo area and
    either remove the spare tire completely or make it inaccessible. This
    poses a risk in the event of a flat tire in an emergency situation.

    Noncompliance With EPA Regulations:
    Toyota's hybrid vehicles are compliant with EPA regulations on
    emissions. To the extent hybrid plug-in converters interfere with the
    ECM and the vehicle's emissions, the vehicle may then not be in
    compliance with EPA regulations.
     
  2. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    Other than the risk of not meeting EPA, the rest are just BS for why PHEV conversion should not happen.

    Shocks/Springs can be changed.
    Crash worthiness, who cares?
    Fire? :lol:
    Electrical Shock? :lol: EE are the ones hacking, they know as much if not more about electricity.
    Flat Tire? :lol:

    Merlin.... flame away.... I am on your side with this Toyota memo :lol:
     
  3. Swanny1172

    Swanny1172 New Member

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    What else would you expect Toyota to say?

    Also, let's look at who said it.

    Charles E. Ing, Director, Government Affairs Toyota Motor North America

    Director of Government Affairs is typically slang for lobbyist. Again, this is all spin and no substance.
     
  4. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    I'm not surprised that they'd take this stance...but I do wonder about the Prius' structure; that it may not have that much extra beef built into it in the first place, and that adding a 'dense' few hundred pounds worth of batteries back there might possibly compromise some aspects of crashworthiness.

    I have nothing whatsoever substantive to base that on, however.
     
  5. etyler88

    etyler88 etyler88

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    All corporations produce high levels of mumbo jumbo. Toyota is a corporation and was therefore expected to produce some mumbo jumbo. I am 100% certain that nobody from Toyota hybrid R&D had any input in that memo. It means nothing.
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

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    This isn't a big deal. It's CYA stuff saying "we wanna make it clear we're not the ones encouraging this stuff." Just in case there is a bad outcome...odds are there will be at some point, but I'm sure this will, in no way, discourage anyone from doing a conversion...most if not all of them already are aware of the potential risks.

    One point that really suggests this is just CYA is the spare battery point...I mean, come on, that is just plain lame.

    The only point that may be somewhat legitimate is the NOx issue...though I fail to understand how it could produce more NOx emissions if the ICE and emissions control systems aren't altered.....just cooling of the CATs due to the extended EV distances??
     
  7. priussoris

    priussoris New Member

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    It goes back to PRODUCT LIABILITY ISSUES WHO'S GOING TO PAY AND WHEN
     
  8. Tech_Guy

    Tech_Guy Class Clown

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    Toyota's position seems rather logical. However, my gut feeling tells me that the true reason for their statement is because of legal liability. If there were an accident with human injury with a converted hybrid, then Toyota would be sued along with the supplier of the PHEV conversion kit. When you file a law suit, you always include any party that has very deep pockets (Toyota in this case)...

    Keith :unsure:
     
  9. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    That is a high priority CYA! When you add batteries to the existing pack, you increase the amount of amperage available. DC kills faster than AC can. You can get hit with 220V of AC and not get hurt too bad, but 220V of DC, that crap can kill you, especially if there is a lot of amperage behind it. That may be their biggest concern since the addition of batteries would be in the passenger compartment, not buried underneath it. Some might say, but it is in the back, but this car does not have a trunk, so technically it is part of the passenger compartment. In the event of a crash, these batteries are exposed, and since Toyota doesn't have any control of how the mod was done, the modifier may have bypassed the safety cutoff so these buggers could be hot after the crash, becoming a hazard to rescue workers and trapped passengers. The statement regarding plugging it in basically says, if you plug in a Prius that wasn't designed by us to be plugged in and your house burns down, don't blame us.
    yes that is exactly what can cause high Nox, cold cats do not do what they are designed to do and you have higher emissions when they are not functioning at 100%. If the engine controls see a warm engine, they can lean burn, but if the cat is cold at the same time, it does not produce enough heat to catalyze the NoX to the proper levels. Lean burning produces more Nox, which the cats convert into other gases.
     
  10. ZA_Andy

    ZA_Andy Member

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    It seems very clear to me that the entire purpose of this document is to create a liability question such that if Toyota are faced with a suit, they have this to fall back on as the foundations of argument on which to defend themselves. Rightly in my view since, for example, it remains very unclear what safety implications there are in adding notable rigid weight to the rear crumple zone where it was such was not designed to be.

    It's Toyota saying 'we know this is being done, and you can do it as much as you want, but let it be known that the car wasn't designed for it' - that's the point, that the car wasn't designed for it, thus whoever undertakes this work can only do so in accepting liability for the consequence. They dress it up with all the other stuff to look like it's a reasonably credible anti-modification analysis, but they don't really care much about the details, just their backsides.
     
  11. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    Even things like unattached speakers sitting on the package shelf behind the rear window can, under sudden deceleration, have gain quite a lot of energy when flung forward in an accident; I can only guess how many thousands of pounds those 'few hundred pounds' of batteries would weigh if they broke free of their attachment points when the rest of the car came to a sudden stop.

    And their potentially being hot after an accident is also, I'd guess, a big issue (as mentioned above).
     
  12. Earthling

    Earthling New Member

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    If my Prius ever needs a new battery, I expect by then that Toyota will be offering a lithium-ion replacement battery, with suitable software upgrade.

    That's all I really care about. I don't see me coming up with big bucks to convert to plug-in just for the sake of converting.

    harry
     
  13. ceric

    ceric New Member

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    What is the surprise here?
    If you were Toyota, you would be saying the samething.
    It is the way it is. Liability disclaiming before it actually happens.
    And, it probably would at somepoint in the future. :(
     
  14. ZA_Andy

    ZA_Andy Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Jun 29 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]470207[/snapback]</div>
    It may well already have happened, or there be an impending threat of it. All it would take is for one modified hybrid to have been involved in an injury-related wreck to get the lawyers sharpening their pens.
     
  15. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    Toyota should provide PHEVs in all of its models, address all the listed Toyota concerns and move positivey forward. Toyota, quit complaining and get your act together.
     
  16. Toodlebug

    Toodlebug New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(etyler88 @ Jun 29 2007, 01:59 PM) [snapback]470134[/snapback]</div>



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jun 29 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]470128[/snapback]</div>

    I am 100% positive that the memo conforms to what Toyota R&D has been concerned about. Google Bill Reinert to find out what R&D has to say. You will also find out a great deal about the hydrogen program.
     
  17. hb06

    hb06 Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Jun 29 2007, 12:26 PM) [snapback]470207[/snapback]</div>
    I am in agreement that these are valid safety as well as liability concerns which merit mention. Then proceed at your own risk. I would not be comfortable with any Li-Ion battery mod at this point in time. It took Toyota a few years of constant monitoring with laptops just to keep the NiMh batts from catching fire when the Prius was first developed, but what a fine, stable product it is now.
     
  18. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skruse @ Jun 29 2007, 02:55 PM) [snapback]470290[/snapback]</div>
    That won't happen until there is marketplace competitive pressure. Lets hope that GM gets it right with the Volt. Then there is a much greater chance that Toyota will get serious about PHEVs. Until then, they are going to focus on selling Tundras - that is where the margin is.
     
  19. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    This sounds like Toyota marketing spooling up hysteria so they can
    later say "don't buy unsafe aftermarket conversions from these
    wankers, they don't know what they're doing -- come buy the new 2010
    plug-in super-safe FMVSS-compliant hybrid from US!" Of course they
    can do some predictive setup many years out, they've proven time and
    again they take a long view but it is always bent toward what's good
    for the company, sometimes at the expense of what's good for the
    owner. Heck, we see that in the present owners manual: if any tiny
    little thing happens, go STRAIGHT to your Toyota dealer. That's one
    of the things that started me down the research road -- thinking "do
    I own this car, or do they?"
    .
    Now, how many PHEV-converted priuses have been in accidents?? They
    very likely are driven by smarter, more aware people.
    .
    _H*
     
  20. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ Jun 29 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]470434[/snapback]</div>
    I think that is stretching it quite a bit. They do have valid concerns and in todays sue happy world, they need to protect their assets every which way it can. Just because the driver is "smart" and "aware" does not mean that crashes cant happen, all it would take is someone falling asleep and rear ending one of these modified cars with disastrous results to start the ball rolling. You need to keep in mind, cars are designed to crumple into a ball when hit to absorb impacts and keep it away from the occupants, and when you do anything that changes the way the structure crumples, like adding a battery tray in the rear, you just changed the entire structure of the car, defeating the crash worthiness of the design. These are all legitimate concerns by Toyota.