Toyota to put new hybrid-system

The Toyota Harrier, btw, is the Lexus 400h.

 

for a second there, I had the image of a hybrid VTOL Fighter Jet..... :blink:

that would be kewl.

 

Ah, just a tad quicker than me...

Toyota to use new hybrid system in 2008, report says



Reuters / November 16, 2005


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TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp. will begin using a cheaper and smaller hybrid system from 2008, more than doubling production of the fuel-sipping vehicles by then to 600,000 units a year, the Asahi newspaper reported on Wednesday.

Japan's top automaker is keen to spread the hybrid powertrain as the main fuel-efficient alternative to internal combustion engines to make up for initial spending on research and development and to lower high per-unit production costs.

Toyota is aiming to sell 1 million hybrid vehicles annually some time in the decade beginning in 2010.

Since rolling out the world's first gasoline-electric hybrid car in 1997, Toyota has improved the powertrain with a second-generation system it calls THS II, which powers the remodeled Prius and Lexus RX 400h SUV, among others.

But the hybrid system, which allows vehicles to run on an electric motor under certain driving conditions to save fuel, still costs manufacturers -- and consumers -- a premium of thousands of dollars over regular cars.

By making the system smaller, Toyota aims to slash the premium by half and expand its use to most of its mid-sized or larger cars, the newspaper said, without citing sources.

Toyota executives have said they aimed to eventually make the powertrain available across its entire product line-up.

Toyota has been pouring r&d resources into addressing the cost issue, but a spokeswoman said a target date for a third generation hybrid system had not been set.

"2008 is certainly a possibility, but we don't know that yet," she said.

Toyota expects to build and sell about 250,000 hybrid vehicles this year through its eight model offerings.

Next year, that will rise to between 350,000 and 400,000 units, boosted by the addition of the Camry hybrid to be built in Kentucky from the latter half of 2006, and the China-built Prius, production of which has been targeted to begin by this year.

The newspaper said Toyota would begin making key components for the hybrid systems in the United States -- the first time this manufacturing would be done outside Japan -- in line with the automaker's stated aim to eventually procure such parts locally.

Led by Toyota's aggressive push, sales of hybrid vehicles have risen sharply over the past few years, particularly in the United States and Europe, but automakers have yet to agree on a de facto powertrain for saving fuel.


Automotive

 

What do you mean by "the Japanese cycle is very different"?

 

2008, huh?

Maybe I'll work on moving my next car purchase back from 2014...

 

What does that 35.5 k/l mean. What vehicle is that in?

 

This is what I think will happen.

Li-ion battery IS the key here. It is lighter and more powerful. Since each Li-ion cell has three times the voltage of NiMH. 139 Li-ion cells (3.6V) will make 500.4 Volts. This will be 21% less battery cells than current NiMH pack (168 = 28 modules x 6 cells per module).

The battery pack voltage will equal electric motors' voltages. If Toyota use DC motors, there would be no need for the IGBT AC->DC / DC->DC Inverter and it's coolant either. This will cut the cost and parts down.

Use the 3-sheft design like in HH/400h to get rid of the chain. Also implement an electric water pump instead of belt driven one. Eliminate that 12-volt LEAD acid battery! Instead, use the main Li-ion HV pack or have a 140th dedicated Li-ion cell to boot that computer.

What do we have here? No more:

- IGBT inverter
- Inverter coolant
- 28 battery cells
- Lead acid 12-volt battery
- Chain from PSD to drive gear
- Belt driven water pump

Alright, enough of daydreaming

 

Where do you come up with "no IGBT inverter"? *Something* has to
commutate a DC motor, and that's going to be semiconductors of
some sort because they've *way* supplanted mechanical brushes.
.
_H*

 

There is speculation that the newer and more compact 3rd generation transmission is a version of one designed by a company called Torotrak with whom Toyotas powertrain manufacturers Aisen have a production licence.

We also know that Aisen have had 60 engineers working on this transmission for about 2 years now and that we have constantly been told it takes about 3 years to go from agreement to production (2005- 2008 ?!).

They (torotrak - stock exchange symbol TRK.L) - design a CVT system that does not need a clutch - (called an IVT) and where the clutch gwas - in goes ithe electrical motor (for powering and generating)

We know that a Lexus 460 has been seen being tested in the companies grounds, however we don't know if it was a hybrid version, but we also know that there is a lot of technical optimisation work being conducted by a university (cranfield in the UK) for an IVT system boosted with an electric motor.

This is the link to Torotrak

This is what it looks like without the electrical motor in the clutch / torque converter housing space:
[Broken External Image]:http://www.torotrak.com/images/ivt_border.jpg

There are a lot of benefits to this transmission which can be found here (for benefits page)

but the important ones are
fully scaleable - i.e. can go in a lawnmower to a truck - so unlike a Belt CVT it can deliver the power for a top range Lexus,
Better fuel efficiency than all fixed ratio and clutched transmissions
Better accelleration than 6speed auto
Incredibly smooth driving
Same or lower cost than a conventional gearbox (without electric motor)
Same space as a conventional 6speed gearbox (making upgrades easy)
and then a few tricks like creep speed cruise control up and down hills, and hill hold without brakes.

Does any one have any other information that they can share ? I'd be very interested to know if you think that this is indeed a likely possibility ?

cheers
WTPooh

 

H-m-m-m. I just placed my order for a 2006 Prius, my first one. Maybe, based on this report, I should wait another two years?

 

Three. Not the best idea to buy the first year model after a major change. Still too many bugs to be worked out. If you want the new engine, you'll just have to sell your 2006 Prius when you pick up your new 2009 Prius.

 

The 'inverter electronics' required currently to run the motors will not go away for a long time. They allow a motor with no brushes to vary in speed and power easily. The electronics currently require cooling but the next version probobly wont. High power (hi amp hi volt) solid state parts have come a long way in the past 5 years. The Prius does not use some of the newer parts that have come down in price. I am sure the next version will.

With new electronics and LI batteries alone the Prius would have more power and economy, and who knows what else they will do.

 

I'm slightly doubtful that they'd go for the Torotrak system, at least for the Prius. From what I can see on Torotrak's site, they're suggesting it as a way of making parallel hybrids (like Honda IMA) work more efficiently.

Toyota have used parallel hybrids in some other (Japanese-only) vehicles, but does the Torotrak make such a difference to their performance that it renders the HSD redundant?

And wouldn't you lose some of the benefits of HSD - notably EV mode?

 

As I understand it, the Torotrak system is a simpler arrangement of a parallel hybrid system. It can essentially mimic any of the driving modes that you may wish for, maual, stepped auto, variable auto, and your EV mode can simply be enabled by software, and selection buttons.

In terms of performance it is similar and uses a annuar electric motor developed by Newage, and has been included as part of the Uk's Foresight Vehicle program of research.

It is not like the GM CVT that still needs a clutch/launch system and only planetary gears - the Torotrak system has a Toroidal Friction System (hence the name). The planetary gears arranged in the TRK IVT give it the geared neutral - that gets rid of the clutch system requirement.

The annular motor packs into a smaller space than the currend HSD system with its increased power density, and fitting into a standard transmission space whilst delivering all of the HSD performance aspects.

So, given that it does the same as an HSD, but fits into a smaller space, and has a few other performance tricks that torque transmission control can give, I feel that it may well make a good 3rd generation of HSD for Toyota. However - thats my question - does anyone else out there know information that might say that this is wrong or indeed right ?

many thanks
WTP

 

Do you know how big(small) the Planetary Gear set on the Prius is?
It's much smaller than the Torotrak.

http://privatenrg.com/#Planetary_Gear

Ken@Japan

 

Hi Ken,
I'm not sure you can compare just the Planetary gear of one system to the entirety of another system ?

As I understand it the overall packaging for the HSD is larger than that for the Torotrak system. The size of the plantary gears used for power split (PSD) is a function of the power transmitted, as it is in the torotrak system and therefore limited by mechanical design - so I would expect them to end up dimensionally similar as functional components.

If you like component counting - the HSD is two electric motors (MG1 and MG2) as opposed to only one in the TRK system.

Great link to a website of info though - thank you