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Tyranny of the Christian Right (AlterNet)

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by larkinmj, May 30, 2006.

  1. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

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    Tyranny of the Christian Right
    By Michelle Goldberg, AlterNet
    Posted on May 30, 2006, Printed on May 30, 2006
    http://www.alternet.org/story/36640/

    Whenever I talk about the growing power of the evangelical right with friends, they always ask the same question: What can we do? Usually I reply with a joke: Keep a bag packed and your passport current.

    I don't really mean it, but my anxiety is genuine. It's one thing to have a government that shows contempt for civil liberties; America has survived such men before. It's quite another to have a mass movement -- the largest and most powerful mass movement in the nation -- rise up in opposition to the rights of its fellow citizens. The Constitution protects minorities, but that protection is not absolute; with a sufficiently sympathetic or apathetic majority, a tightly organized faction can get around it.

    The mass movement I've described aims to supplant Enlightenment rationalism with what it calls the "Christian worldview." The phrase is based on the conviction that true Christianity must govern every aspect of public and private life, and that all -- government, science, history and culture -- must be understood according to the dictates of scripture. There are biblically correct positions on every issue, from gay marriage to income tax rates, and only those with the right worldview can discern them. This is Christianity as a total ideology -- I call it Christian nationalism. It's an ideology adhered to by millions of Americans, some of whom are very powerful. It's what drives a great many of the fights over religion, science, sex and pluralism now dividing communities all over the country.

    I am not suggesting that religious tyranny is imminent in the United States. Our democracy is eroding and some of our rights are disappearing, but for most people, including those most opposed to the Christian nationalist agenda, life will most likely go on pretty much as normal for the foreseeable future. Thus for those who value secular society, apprehending the threat of Christian nationalism is tricky. It's like being a lobster in a pot, with the water heating up so slowly that you don't notice the moment at which it starts to kill you.

    If current trends continue, we will see ever-increasing division and acrimony in our politics. That's partly because, as Christian nationalism spreads, secularism is spreading as well, while moderate Christianity is in decline. According to the City University of New York Graduate Center's comprehensive American religious identification survey, the percentage of Americans who identify as Christians has actually fallen in recent years, from 86 percent in 1990 to 77 percent in 2001. The survey found that the largest growth, in both absolute and percentage terms, was among those who don't subscribe to any religion. Their numbers more than doubled, from 14.3 million in 1990, when they constituted 8 percent of the population, to 29.4 million in 2001, when they made up 14 percent.

    "The top three 'gainers' in America's vast religious marketplace appear to be Evangelical Christians, those describing themselves as Non-Denominational Christians and those who profess no religion," the survey found. (The percentage of other religious minorities remained small, totaling less than 4 percent of the population).

    This is a recipe for polarization. As Christian nationalism becomes more militant, secularists and religious minorities will mobilize in opposition, ratcheting up the hostility. Thus we're likely to see a shrinking middle ground, with both camps increasingly viewing each other across a chasm of mutual incomprehension and contempt.

    In the coming years, we will probably see the curtailment of the civil rights that gay people, women and religious minorities have won in the last few decades. With two Bush appointees on the Supreme Court, abortion rights will be narrowed; if the president gets a third, it could mean the end of Roe v. Wade. Expect increasing drives to ban gay people from being adoptive or foster parents, as well as attempts to fire gay schoolteachers. Evangelical leaders are encouraging their flocks to be alert to signs of homosexuality in their kids, which will lead to a growing number of gay teenagers forced into "reparative therapy" designed to turn them straight. (Focus on the Family urges parents to consider seeking help for boys as young as five if they show a "tendency to cry easily, be less athletic, and dislike the roughhousing that other boys enjoy.")

    Christian nationalist symbolism and ideology will increasingly pervade public life. In addition to the war on evolution, there will be campaigns to teach Christian nationalist history in public schools. An elective course developed by the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, a right-wing evangelical group, is already being offered by more than 300 school districts in 36 states. The influence of Christian nationalism in public schools, colleges, courts, social services and doctors' offices will deform American life, rendering it ever more pinched, mean, and divided.

    There's still a long way, though, between this damaged version of democracy and real theocracy. Tremendous crises would have to shred what's left of the American consensus before religious fascism becomes a possibility. That means that secularists and liberals shouldn't get hysterical, but they also shouldn't be complacent.

    Christian nationalism is still constrained by the Constitution, the courts, and by a passionate democratic (and occasionally Democratic) opposition. It's also limited by capitalism. Many corporations are happy to see their political allies harness the rage and passion of the Christian right's foot soldiers, but the culture industry is averse to government censorship. Nor is homophobia good for business, since many companies need to both recruit qualified gay employees and market to gay customers. Biotech firms are not going to want to hire graduates without a thorough understanding of evolution, so economic pressure will militate against creationism's invading a critical mass of the public schools.

    Taking the land

    It would take a national disaster, or several of them, for all these bulwarks to crumble and for Christian nationalists to truly "take the land," as Michael Farris, president of the evangelical Patrick Henry College, put it. Historically, totalitarian movements have been able to seize state power only when existing authorities prove unable to deal with catastrophic challenges -- economic meltdown, security failures, military defeat -- and people lose their faith in the legitimacy of the system.

    Such calamities are certainly conceivable in America -- Hurricane Katrina's aftermath offered a terrifying glimpse of how quickly order can collapse. If terrorists successfully strike again, we'd probably see significant curtailment of liberal dissenters' free speech rights, coupled with mounting right-wing belligerence, both religious and secular.

    The breakdown in the system could also be subtler. Many experts have warned that America's debt is unsustainable and that economic crisis could be on the horizon. If there is a hard landing -- due to an oil shock, a burst housing bubble, a sharp decline in the value of the dollar, or some other crisis -- interest rates would shoot up, leaving many people unable to pay their floating-rate mortgages and credit card bills. Repossessions and bankruptcies would follow. The resulting anger could fuel radical populist movements of either the left or the right -- more likely the right, since it has a far stronger ideological infrastructure in place in most of America.

    Military disaster may also exacerbate such disaffection. America's war in Iraq seems nearly certain to come to an ignominious end. The real victims of failure there will be Iraqi, but many Americans will feel embittered, humiliated and sympathetic to the stab-in-the-back rhetoric peddled by the right to explain how Bush's venture has gone so horribly wrong. It was the defeat in World War I, after all, that created the conditions for fascism to grow in Germany.

    Perhaps America will be lucky, however, and muddle through its looming problems. In that case, Christian nationalism will continue to be a powerful and growing influence in American politics, although its expansion will happen more fitfully and gradually.

    The country's demographics are on the movement's side. Megachurch culture is spreading. The exurbs where religious conservatism thrives are the fastest growing parts of America; in 2004, 97 of the country's 100 fastest-growing counties voted Republican. The disconnection of the exurbs is a large part of what makes the spread of Christian nationalism's fictitious reality possible, because there is very little to conflict with it.

    A movement that constitutes its members' entire social world has a grip that's hard to break. In The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt put it this way: "Social atomization and extreme individualization preceded the mass movements which, much more easily and earlier than they did the sociable, non-individualistic members of the traditional parties, attracted the completely unorganized, the typical 'nonjoiners' who for individualistic reasons always had refused to recognize social links or obligations."

    America's ragged divides

    Those who want to fight Christian nationalism will need a long-term and multifaceted strategy. I see it as having three parts -- electoral reform to give urban areas fair representation in the federal government, grassroots organizing to help people fight Christian nationalism on the ground and a media campaign to raise public awareness about the movement's real agenda.

    My ideas are not about reconciliation or healing. It would be good if a leader stepped forward who could recognize the grievances of both sides, broker some sort of truce, and mend America's ragged divides. The anxieties that underlay Christian nationalism's appeal -- fears about social breakdown, marital instability and cultural decline -- are real. They should be acknowledged and, whenever possible, addressed. But as long as the movement aims at the destruction of secular society and the political enforcement of its theology, it has to be battled, not comforted and appeased.

    And while I support liberal struggles for economic justice -- higher wages, universal health care, affordable education, and retirement security -- I don't think economic populism will do much to neutralize the religious right. Cultural interests are real interests, and many drives are stronger than material ones. As Arendt pointed out, totalitarian movements have always confounded observers who try to analyze them in terms of class.

    Ultimately, a fight against Christian nationalist rule has to be a fight against the anti-urban bias built into the structure of our democracy. Because each state has two senators, the 7 percent of the population that live in the 17 least-populous states control more than a third of Congress's upper house. Conservative states are also overrepresented in the Electoral College.

    According to Steven Hill of the Center for Voting and Democracy, the combined populations of Montana, Wyoming, Nevada, North and South Dakota, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arizona, and Alaska equal that of New York and Massachusetts, but the former states have a total of nine more votes in the Electoral College (as well as over five times the votes in the Senate). In America, conservatives literally count for more.

    Liberals should work to abolish the Electoral College and to even out the composition of the Senate, perhaps by splitting some of the country's larger states.(A campaign for statehood for New York City might be a place to start.) It will be a grueling, Herculean job. With conservatives already indulging in fantasies of victimization at the hands of a maniacal Northeastern elite, it will take a monumental movement to wrest power away from them. Such a movement will come into being only when enough people in the blue states stop internalizing right-wing jeers about how out of touch they are with "real Americans" and start getting angry at being ruled by reactionaries who are out of touch with them.

    After all, the heartland has no claim to moral authority. The states whose voters are most obsessed with "moral values" have the highest divorce and teen pregnancy rates. The country's highest murder rates are in the South and the lowest are in New England. The five states with the best-ranked public schools in the country -- Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, New Jersey and Wisconsin -- are all progressive redoubts. The five states with the worst -- New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Mississippi and Louisiana -- all went for Bush.

    The canard that the culture wars are a fight between "elites" versus "regular Americans" belies a profound split between different kinds of ordinary Americans, all feeling threatened by the others' baffling and alien values. Ironically, however, by buying into right-wing elite-baiting, liberals start thinking like out-of-touch elites. Rather than reflecting on what kind of policies would make their own lives better, what kind of country they want to live in, and who they want to represent them -- and then figuring out how to win others to their vision -- progressives flail about for ideas and symbols that they hope will appeal to some imaginary heartland rube. That is condescending.

    Focus on the local

    One way for progressives to build a movement and fight Christian nationalism at the same time is to focus on local politics. For guidance, they need only look to the Christian Coalition: It wasn't until after Bill Clinton's election exiled the evangelical right from power in Washington that the Christian Coalition really developed its nationwide electoral apparatus.

    The Christian right developed a talent for crafting state laws and amendments to serve as wedge issues, rallying their base, and forcing the other side to defend seemingly extreme positions. Campaigns to require parental consent for minors' abortions, for example, get overwhelming public support and put the pro-choice movement on the defensive while giving pro-lifers valuable political experience.

    Liberals can use this strategy too. They can find issues to exploit the other side's radicalism, winning a few political victories and, just as important, marginalizing Christian nationalists in the eyes of their fellow citizens. Progressives could work to pass local and state laws, by ballot initiative wherever possible, denying public funds to any organization that discriminates on the basis of religion. Because so much faith-based funding is distributed through the states, such laws could put an end to at least some of the taxpayer-funded bias practiced by the Salvation Army and other religious charities. Right now, very few people know that, thanks to Bush, a faith-based outfit can take tax dollars and then explicitly refuse to hire Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or Muslims. The issue needs far more publicity, and a political fight -- or a series of them -- would provide it. Better still, the campaign would contribute to the creation of a grassroots infrastructure -- a network of people with political experience and a commitment to pluralism.

    Progressives could also work on passing laws to mandate that pharmacists fill contraceptive prescriptions. (Such legislation has already been introduced in California, Missouri, New Jersey, Nevada, and West Virginia.) The commercials would practically write themselves. Imagine a harried couple talking with their doctor and deciding that they can't afford any more kids. The doctor writes a birth control prescription, the wife takes it to her pharmacist -- and he sends her away with a religious lecture. The campaign could use one of the most successful slogans that abortion rights advocates ever devised: "Who decides -- you or them?"

    A new media strategy

    In conjunction with local initiatives, opponents of Christian nationalism need a new media strategy. Many people realize this. Fenton Communications, the agency that handles public relations for MoveOn, recently put together the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, a MoveOn-style grassroots group devoted to raising awareness about the religious right. With nearly 3.5 million members ready to be quickly mobilized to donate money, write letters or lobby politicians on behalf of progressive causes, MoveOn is the closest thing liberals have to the Christian Coalition, but its focus tends to be on economic justice, foreign policy and the environment rather than contentious social issues. The Campaign to Defend the Constitution intends to build a similar network to counter Christian nationalism wherever it appears.

    Much of what media strategists need to do simply involves public education. Americans need to learn what Christian Reconstructionism means so that they can decide whether they approve of their congressmen consorting with theocrats. They need to realize that the Republican Party has become the stronghold of men who fundamentally oppose public education because they think women should school their kids themselves. (In It Takes a Family, Rick Santorum calls public education an "aberration" and predicts that home-schooling will flourish as "one viable option among many that will open up as we eliminate the heavy hand of the village elders' top-down control of education and allow a thousand parent-nurtured flowers to bloom.")

    When it comes to the public relations fight against Christian nationalism, nothing is trickier than battles concerning public religious symbolism. Fights over crèches in public squares or Christmas hymns sung by school choirs are really about which aspects of the First Amendment should prevail -- its protection of free speech or its ban on the establishment of religion. In general, I think it's best to err on the side of freedom of expression. As in most First Amendment disputes, the answer to speech (or, in this case, symbolism) that makes religious minorities feel excluded or alienated is more speech -- menorahs, Buddhas, Diwali lights, symbols celebrating America's polyglot spiritualism.

    There are no neat lines, no way to suck the venom out of these issues without capitulating completely. But one obvious step civil libertarians should take is a much more vocal stance in defense of evangelicals' free speech rights when they are unfairly curtailed. Although far less common than the Christian nationalists pretend, on a few occasions lawsuit-fearing officials have gone overboard in defending church/state separation, silencing religious speech that is protected by the First Amendment. (In one 2005 incident that got tremendous play in the right-wing press, a principal in Tennessee wouldn't allow a ten-year-old student to hold a Bible study during recess.) Such infringements should be fought for reasons both principled, because Christians have the same right to free speech as everyone else, and political, because these abuses generate a backlash that ultimately harms the cause of church/state separation.

    The ACLU already does this, but few hear about it, because secularists lack the right's propaganda apparatus. Liberals need to create their own echo chamber to refute these kind of distortions while loudly supporting everyone's freedom of speech. Committed Christian nationalists won't be won over, but some of their would-be sympathizers might be inoculated against the claim that progressives want to extirpate their faith, making it harder for the right to frame every political dispute as part of a war against Jesus.

    The challenge, finally, is to make reality matter again. If progressives can do that, perhaps America can be saved.

    Fighting fundamentalism at home

    Writing just after 9/11, Salman Rushdie eviscerated those on the left who rationalized the terrorist attacks as a regrettable explosion of understandable third world rage: "The fundamentalist seeks to bring down a great deal more than buildings," he wrote. "Such people are against, to offer just a brief list, freedom of speech, a multiparty political system, universal adult suffrage, accountable government, Jews, homosexuals, women's rights, pluralism, secularism, short skirts, dancing, beardlessness, evolution theory, sex."

    Christian nationalists have no problem with beardlessness, but except for that, Rushdie could have been describing them.

    It makes no sense to fight religious authoritarianism abroad while letting it take over at home. The grinding, brutal war between modern and medieval values has spread chaos, fear, and misery across our poor planet. Far worse than the conflicts we're experiencing today, however, would be a world torn between competing fundamentalisms. Our side, America's side, must be the side of freedom and Enlightenment, of liberation from stale constricting dogmas. It must be the side that elevates reason above the commands of holy books and human solidarity above religious supremacism. Otherwise, God help us all.

    Reprinted from Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism by Michelle Goldberg. Copyright © 2006 by Michelle Goldberg. With permission of the publisher, W.W. Norton & Company, Inc.


    © 2006 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
    View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/36640/
     
  2. mike0422

    mike0422 New Member

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    Michael,

    What are your objections to the Christian beliefs?
     
  3. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]262743[/snapback]</div>
    I don't know about his, but I personally object to any belief being forced on me. This includes 'a moment of prayer' in schools or the workplace.
     
  4. mike0422

    mike0422 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 12:12 PM) [snapback]262747[/snapback]</div>
    No one likes to be forced to do anything they don't want to do. Have you ever personally been forced to pray at school or work?
     
  5. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 12:20 PM) [snapback]262751[/snapback]</div>
    No, but my son is forced to say

    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag
    of the United States of America,
    and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation under God, indivisible,
    With Liberty and Justice for all."
     
  6. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 12:20 PM) [snapback]262751[/snapback]</div>
    Actually, I've been forced to sit through prayers at football games, and yes, our schools did flirt and experiment with the prayer. And I don't care if I'm not actually forced to pray, it's the notion.
     
  7. mike0422

    mike0422 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]262759[/snapback]</div>
    The notion of not doing something you don't want to do? I am forced to sit through lectures or training or classes that I am not interested in, could sometimes teach better than the professor or that have no application to me personally. I just sit through them. I can usually use the time to accomplish something else, perhaps think of a to do list. If someone believes these lectures/training will do me some good, that is fine. I don't hold it against them if they believe that.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 30 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]262757[/snapback]</div>
    Do you just disagree with the "under God" or in pledge allegiance to anything?
     
  8. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]262759[/snapback]</div>
    Prayer at sporting events is the most ridiculous display I can imagine (although, having gone to many Phillies games as a kid, I can sort of understand it :rolleyes: ) Do people who believe in God think that God cares about who wins a football game? That the team that prays harder will emerge victorious? If it really does work, does God also influence point spreads?
     
  9. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 12:33 PM) [snapback]262765[/snapback]</div>
    Did you pay for those lectures? I know I sat thru some mind numbing college lectures, but I paid for them, and I needed to absorb and understand the material to get a diploma. However, you're also free to get up and walk out of most college lectures. If I walked up and got out of a room during a moment of prayer, that'd be mighty disrespectful. Now, would you have objections if you had a largeish muslim population and they wanted to have the call to prayer announced over loudspeakers? How about if a guy who practiced some sort of paganism wanted to sacrifice a chicken? How about wiccans who may want to chant? If you're willing to accomidate them all, then I have no problems with this.


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 12:33 PM) [snapback]262765[/snapback]</div>
    You know the "under god" part is a relatively new edition, right?
     
  10. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]262743[/snapback]</div>
    My objection is not to Christian beliefs. I really don't care about them, and I support everyone's right to believe in whatever he or she desires.
    My objection is to the breakdown of separation of church and state, and the imposition of Christian philosophy on everyone.
     
  11. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag
    of the United States of America,
    and to the Republic for which it stands:
    one Nation under God, indivisible,
    With Liberty and Justice for all."

    May I suggest an updated version?

    I pledge allegiance to the truth
    no matter how many may find it offensive
    and to freedom and security for all people
    no matter what race, religion, class or nationality
    with liberty and justice for all
    including the detainees at Guantanamo
     
  12. mike0422

    mike0422 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 30 2006, 12:41 PM) [snapback]262773[/snapback]</div>
    I believe the intent is to ask God to watch over the players and officials for safety. It is also to ask that God will help to keep things civil. Some folks pray for things they shouldn't at times.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 30 2006, 12:47 PM) [snapback]262779[/snapback]</div>
    So where do you get your standards from that you teach your children or live by?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 30 2006, 12:53 PM) [snapback]262786[/snapback]</div>
    Who's truth? I'll ask the same question of you that I asked Michael. Where do you get your standards that you teach your children?
     
  13. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 30 2006, 11:47 AM) [snapback]262779[/snapback]</div>
    Hear, hear! One of the great geniuses of Western democracy is the concept of secular pluralism, under which everyone is free to believe and practice whatever they wish as long as they obey a common religion-neutral body of law.
     
  14. mike0422

    mike0422 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 12:46 PM) [snapback]262777[/snapback]</div>
    These are sometimes required lectures at my work.

    Yes, I know that it was added by Congressional approval. I don't always agree with everything Congress approves and you don't either obviously.
     
  15. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 12:56 PM) [snapback]262787[/snapback]</div>
    I'd like to think that you don't need "God" or the bible to teach your children to be decent human beings and to be kind to one another. If you really need the bible to set your expectations in that regard, to teach children something that should come naturally to you as a human being and an adult, then I suggest some heavy introspection.
     
  16. mike0422

    mike0422 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ May 30 2006, 12:57 PM) [snapback]262789[/snapback]</div>
    Ah, you mean laws like Thou shalt not murder; thou shalt not steal.... Those kinds of religion neutral laws?
     
  17. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    I certainly don't get my "standards" from any form of unprovable
    superstition, especially one whose human-side implementation has
    fostered such violence and disrespect for basic human rights for
    so long ... I'd much rather base my life and teaching around hard
    facts and common sense, thankyouverymuch, and while I won't claim
    that you and your supposed god need to part ways either, that set
    of beliefs has no useful place in *my* lifestyle. Live how you
    like, just don't let it impinge on mine.
    .
    _H*
     
  18. mike0422

    mike0422 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 12:58 PM) [snapback]262791[/snapback]</div>
    Unfortunately you do. You need a standard of truth. Whatever that standard is, you need one. Not everyone will agree with your standard, but you still need to decide what it will be. Otherwise you can do whatever and feel your rights are being stepped on. Did you read about the new Dutch Political Party some folks are forming? They believe you should be able to have sex with children of all ages. I'm not sure what their standard is, but maybe it will be the one in the US soon. I'll stick with the Bible. It never changes and doesn't need to.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ May 30 2006, 01:04 PM) [snapback]262795[/snapback]</div>
    Your not Dutch by any chance?
     
  19. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 12:58 PM) [snapback]262791[/snapback]</div>
    Exactly- and I have taught my children things that are contrary to what the religious right espouses (I realize not all Christians have that outlook). I was proud of my 9-year old daughter several days ago when, while watching a video with a friend (who comes from a conservative Christian family) and the word "lesbian" was mentioned (it was "Miss Congeniality" that they were watching; nothing about sex), my daughter responded to her friend's comment of "lesbians- disgusting" by defending gay people (including her cousin) and saying that all people deserve respect.
     
  20. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 01:06 PM) [snapback]262796[/snapback]</div>
    I'm not Dutch, but whatever. Do you agree with David Koresh's standard, where ol' Davey boy could marry underage women, as many as he wanted? He's christian, right? And you're christian, right? Hrm... I see where you're going and I don't like it one bit!

    As for me, I just try to be a decent human being. I don't need a book to tell me when I'm doing right or wrong, and I don't need self-righteous preacher to tell me when I'm right or wrong. And, as I said, if you live your life cross referencing a bible for your morals, you're probably on the border of being somewhat psychopathic if you just can't 'tell'.