Unintended Acceleration -- While Parking

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by evpv, Dec 29, 2010.

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  1. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    In Nylion's case, the brakes worked as intended, and stopped the ICE revving.

    Your OP is about an incident with "... complete loss of braking with simultaneous application of full power by the computer while his foot was firmly planted on the brake pedal."

    The San Diego Lexus crash, the Denver Prius-in-a-creek and other incidents described on Nightline just over a year ago, the Audi fiasco of a generation ago, my non-Toyota incident, and numerous other incidents in all car brands, are similar to your OP. And quite different than Nylion's problems.
     
  2. 32kcolors

    32kcolors Senior Member

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    You're overreacting. Don't expect the general public to know proper usage of clauses.

    You must be pretty naive to believe everything on the Internet. He also had money to waste by trading his Gen III for a 2010 370Z.
     
  3. evpv

    evpv Active Member

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    But the point is... they're all bad. If nylion didn't identify the problem quickly and mash the brakes he could have caused an accident. Why was the engine revving with his foot off the gas? The brakes are controlled by the computer, if the computer has a glitch that causes the engine to rev out of control it can also have a glitch that causes the regen brakes to shut off. And if the EDR is affected by the glitches and doesn't throw any error codes, then you have the exact situation that many people have described in their complaints to the NHTSA.

    Or, as many of you believe, they could all just be liars. Remind me again, what do all of these liars have to gain from filling out a complaint form with the NHTSA?
     
  4. 32kcolors

    32kcolors Senior Member

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    Probably for the same reason the liars had to gain from claiming needles found in Pepsi cans. But we don't believe they're all liars, as some are cases of pedal confusion where the drivers truly believe they hit the brake when they in fact hit the gas.
     
  5. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Hopping back and forth between distinct 'bad' things just obfuscates the issues.
    Drivers have to identify problems of many sorts very quickly and mash the brakes on a regular basis, which is why most have it as an ingrained reflex.

    While it is unfortunate that Nylion's problem was never traced to a root cause, it did demonstrate successful operation of a brake-throttle-override, which is what many folks are clamoring for as a failsafe mechanism for alleged UA problems across the whole passenger car market. Most U.S.-market cars don't yet have this feature.
    Which 'the computer' do you mean? This isn't a PC or Mac. The scenario you describe involves many different controllers, and it will take one heck of a wild coordinated so-called glitch to throw them all off as described.
    Remind me again, where did I can suggest anyone was a liar? Excepting post #375 of this thread, which was not about complaints to NHTSA.

    Had I taken a certain different but common action during my fatigue-induced UA incident, the car (not a Toyota) would have been totaled into a cedar tree or the neighbor's dining room. In filling out the NHTSA complaint form, I would not have been lying at all, because I would have truly believed it was a problem with the car.
     
  6. 2010prius5

    2010prius5 New Member

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    Guys, I had my foot on the brake very lightly as it slowly rolled out of the garage and started back down the very slight incline. No need to hit accelerator. Only rode the brakes. As ICE started, the brakes had a completely dead feel and lifted my foot and immediately repressed brakes. I am certain of the feeling of pressing on the brake. When that feeling was felt, I released pressure completely from the brake pedal and just reapplied. If I had even remotely touched the accelerator I certainly would not have felt the dead pedal feel, it would have gone to the floor and accelerated. Is it that damn hard tounderstand what I'm telling you. I am certain. I simply had to lift my foot back up off the brake pedal and reapply it right where it was. I'm not knocking Prius for all of the "think I'm bashing Prius so they need to make an excuse to support prius crowd.". It's very simple to understand that as the ICE started it possibly interrupted the brake input signal and me reapplying the brake reset it. Simple, and am just trying to bring light to the situation. I love my Prius, but wanted to post the experience here. That's how people learn whether there are other of these same instances. Be a positive crowd looking to share, learn, and make this a forum that people can benefit from. Don't make it an environment people don't want to visit or post in because they need to strap on a thick skin suit before visiting. I enjoy both sharing and learning in many various forums. Please remember, this is an "electric computer controlled car.". Things do happen when situations are right. Why on many occasions do people say I shut the car off, then turned the car back on and problem solved itself. It didn't happen again. Well, my point is, if it happens again to someone else, they might think of releasing and then reapplying the brakes to reser tge brake signal, rather than just push harder. Please also remember that no one has ever had to reboot there home pc. (JOKE!!!)

    I do agree driver error in many occasions that drivers might not realize. This was simply riding the brake while rolling out of the garage. There wasn't a pedal shift, but a reset of same pedal. Pushing on the accelerator hard to brake would have not presented the dead pedal. The pedal had pressure but didn't apply brakes, they were not there and so just reset with another step on pedal.

    Final post on this issue. People take what positive you may find in my exact occurrence. If you have nothing positive to grab from the posts, don't waste your time posting on this specific matter.

    Have a great day!
     
  7. 32kcolors

    32kcolors Senior Member

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    You've stated that 1) the car had been driven for 45 minutes prior when you re-started it while it was still warm, 2) the brake pedal did not behave normally, and 3) lifting the foot completely off the brake and re-applying it brought it back to normal. I don't know what to tell you but all of these are symptoms of the so-called "grabbing brake in reverse" issue. You may not have felt the jerky movements because you were only lightly riding the brake and did not repeatedly modulate it (the jerky movements only occur when one tries to repress/depress repeatedly while the foot is still on the brake), but the fact remains that the brake pedal doesn't feel right (dead pedal feel as you said) in all of those cases.

    This is akin to two people arguing over whether the car actually accelerates during the regenerative to friction braking transition when braking over a pothole (a different issue), but it doesn't change the fact that we're talking about the same issue.
     
  8. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    You have identified a significant issue in the matter of the believability
    of the many "reports" of U/A. Standing on their own merits they are
    merely allegations... raw data... unverified, unvalidated,
    uninvestigated, highly reliant on a common belief in infallable human
    memory.

    Errors in the initial "reports" would not be the result of lying -- a
    morally repugnant and unforgivable act -- but rather false or
    incomplete memory, an unfortunate but typical human failing.

    Memory errors fall into two classes: people can 1) either completely
    fail to recall an event or 2) have an inaccurate recollection. People
    have very different attitudes about the two types of failure. Most
    people understand that total memory failures are common. They can
    introspect about occasions when they have been unable to recall an
    event, so failures by other people are hardly surprising. In contrast,
    people are overly optimistic about accuracy of their retrieved
    memories, probably because most errors have little practical
    consequence and go unnoticed. Given the confidence in their own
    memory accuracy, people have too much faith in the accuracy of
    eyewitnesses. Memory has a multitude of quirks and inaccuracies that
    creep into its everyday operation.
    Full discussion:
    Visual Expert Human Factors: Eyewitness Memory Is Unreliable

    Also:
    The Problem With Eyewitness Testimony

    Google witness unreliability for more.

    Addditional verification and close scrutiny is needed to validate the
    initial reports. NHTSA has done so and found no verified cases of actual
    U/A, rather probable operator error.
     
  9. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Rokeby, as an example of your memory comments, I recently had a similar experience. I have an unusually good memory, and recall a lot of detail, even from early childhood. I have a memory of one Christmas where my brother did a clever wrapping job of a present and made it look like Santa. I clearly recall it standing to the left of our fireplace.

    Over the holiday season, while wrapping presents, I recalled that happy memory and clearly saw it in my mind's eye, with Santa standing there to the left of the fireplace.

    I received a new scanner for Christmas this year. As a result, I've been mining old slides and negatives and digitizing them. One of them was a photo of me sitting next to the Santa present, with Santa standing there to the *right* of the fireplace. At first I thought the slide was backward in the scanner, but text is clearly visible, and it was correct.

    My memory is good, but not perfect. I remember general ideas and fill in the details as needed. I think most humans work this way, and we do it without realization.

    Tom
     
  10. evpv

    evpv Active Member

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    Not true. The NHTSA concluded that they don't have the ability to diagnose the electronic problems. That's why NASA was called in to investigate.


    "The move by NHTSA to involve both NASA and the National Academy of Sciences likely stems from the lack of resources at NHTSA when it comes to evaluating advanced vehicle electronics. During congressional hearings NHTSA faced criticism after revealing that it lacked the proper expertise to evaluate vehicle electronics."

    “Carmakers have entered the electronics era, but NHTSA seems stuck in a mechanical mindset,” House Energy and Commerce Committee chairman Henry Waxman, said last month. “We need to make sure the federal safety agency has the tools and resources it needs to ensure the safety of the electronic controls and on-board computers that run today’s automobiles.”
     
  11. evpv

    evpv Active Member

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    More validation on the need for footwell cameras. They would eliminate memory error. Just show the customer their foot on the gas and the case would be over. No NHTSA complaint, no class action law suit, no media hysteria, no chatter in forums, no NASA investigation, no huge loss of sales. Just a simple and inexpensive solution.
     
  12. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    A data recorder does the same for less cost. Unless, of course, you believe that it is impossible to reliably record pedal positions.

    Tom
     
  13. jhinsc

    jhinsc Senior Member

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    Agreed. Data recorders is the best source of information to record pedal positions because that is the only action that needs to be recorded. Camera's should be used when a wide variety of unknown actions needs to be recorded, like distracted driving. Distracted driving is a major cause of accidents and in-cabin cameras would be more useful when mounted in/on the rearview mirror with a wide angle lens or pointed at the driver.
     
  14. evpv

    evpv Active Member

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    That's exactly what Dr. David Gilbert submitted in his testimony to the CEC in Feb 2010:

    "In the Toyota ETC system, the APP sensor signal voltages rise simultaneously in direct response to accelerator pedal depression. With this design, interconnected signal circuits could be more difficult to
    identify with a circuit fault detection strategy that uses only threshold voltage limitations.
    In this preliminary report, the initial findings question the integrity and consistency
    of Toyota ECMs to detect potential ETC system circuit malfunctions. The importance of
    these issues raised in the ETC system fail‐safe strategies should not be underestimated.

    TOYOTA Recall: No Codes=No Problem: Testimony of David Gilbert
     
  15. evpv

    evpv Active Member

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    :focus:
    That's a great solution. Have the camera record front view, cockpit view, and the footwell.

    DriveCam - The Driver Science Company | Driver Risk Management

    YouTube - drivecam



     
  16. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    Not true. The NHTSA's administrator didn't like the result from his agency's experts (working with car electronics and computer programming is a 30 year plus thing), since it didn't match up with his mentor's opinion (Ralph Nader). The administrator wasn't happy with the fact that the agency's investigators had to claim whistleblower protection from him, after they leaked the Sikes report (which Strickland was going to quash).

    Ralph Nader (and his Consumers Union) hates Toyota now because of their size and success.

    As for Dr. Gilbert who re-programmed the Toyota computer to create the situation he was paid to document, only the attorneys for the Toyota tort lawyers, or the plaintiffs believe his report. That issue was dealt with long ago on Priuschat.

    Belief and science don't match. The fact that a lot of old people like me get confused about what pedal they're pushing but swear it was the brake, doesn't make it so. The fact that a lot of scientists believe in global warming doesn't make it so. The fact that a lot of medical doctors and politicians and plumbers don't, doesn't make it so.

    Those who choose to believe Ralph Nader & his associates and the tort lawyers are pure as the driven snow here, where's the proof. Not anecdotal, not "smoke=fire" illogic, but real science.
     
  17. evpv

    evpv Active Member

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    Opinion or fact? got a link?

    Conspiracy theory.

    So getting paid for research automatically disqualifies it?

    "House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman asked Gilbert what it took for him to show that a Toyota's circuitry could fail in a way that could lead to unintentional acceleration.
    REP. WAXMAN: So, in other words, you discovered a scenario where a failure in Toyota's accelerator pedal sensors would not trigger an error code and would not cut off the engine power in the event of a failure. How long did it take you to discover this problem? Did you spend millions of dollars and spend years studying it?
    MR. GILBERT: Well, if I might say, after 30 years of automotive technology teaching of electronic engine controls, I discovered it in about three-and-a-half hours.
    REP. WAXMAN: Three-and-a-half hours.
    MR. GILBERT: Yes.

    REP. WAXMAN: And how much money did this take for you to spend — to come up with this conclusion?
    MR. GILBERT: With the equipment that I had on hand, basically very little, if anything."
    Has Toyota Met Its Richard Feynman in David Gilbert? : The Two-Way : NPR


    My opinion: The NASA investigation will uncover proof of flaws in the electronics. Time will tell.
     
  18. 32kcolors

    32kcolors Senior Member

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  19. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Yeah, right.

    Many privacy advocates will raise a huge fuss and immediately paint over the lenses of every camera.
     
  20. evpv

    evpv Active Member

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    It's not that far away. Privacy advocates will whine like they always do, but a law would still be a law.

    Back-up cams will be required by law:

    Rearview camera in cars may be mandatory in 2014 - SFGate

    Proposal AB1942... Forward facing event recorder cameras:

    AB 1942 (Fletcher): Vehicles: video event recorder.

    Video cameras are already in Police cars, taxis, etc. It's not a giant leap to make them required in all cars. They would prevent accidents, reduce court system costs, speed up post-crash analysis, and help diagnose difficult problems like unintended acceleration. It will happen eventually. The only question is when.
     
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