Wal-Mart Decides to Push CFLs Over Incandescents

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Kelly @ Jan 3 2007, 04:58 AM) [snapback]370016[/snapback]</div>

The concept of people here actually crediting WalMart with doing anything + is too much to bear. Imagine WalMart being considered a "green" company - and if they purchase or partner with Habitat that could be another nail in the coffin - they better stop soon or people here will have brain pain.

Imagine if you will, lines of Prii in the parking lots of your local WalMart - loading up with CFL's - donating to Habitat - increasing WalMart's bottom line - aiding their quest for world domination - knocking off each and every small mom and pop store of every small quaint small town or city....

Is it not more environmentally friendly and/or efficient to have one large store provide for as many needs than multiple small stores? Almost like a single payer system for health care - a single provider for all you home needs??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Kelly @ Jan 3 2007, 04:58 AM) [snapback]370016[/snapback]</div>

This is a good thing, but, always the nerd, I'd like to point out that their statistics are probably not right. Unless there's some survey that actually captured self-reported use of CFLs in the home, I'd bet their figure that 6% of households use CFLs is just extrapolated from sales data. It's too close to CFLs share of unit sales for that to be a coincidence.

If so, it's wrong, and the data on fraction of households using these bulbs are not nearly as bad as presented. This came up in a thread last year, where Tripp talked about the forthcoming push for CFLs from GE. At that time national sales data showed 5% of (presumably home) lightbulb sales were CFLs. But CFLs last roughly 10 (?) times as long as incandescents. In that case, sales data grossly misrepresent the use data. If we were in the steady state (not a growing share of CFL use), then 5% of sales would translate into 33% of all bulb placements, based on that 10x longer lifetime.. In other words, because they last so long, if a third of all home bulbs were CFLs, then CFLs would account for 5% of bulb sales (but units, not by $).

So I wouldn't take the US 6% figure as correct unless you could find an actual household survey that asked that question directly. (Which is relevant to the proposed poll.)

Ah, yeah, in classic NY Times fashion, they didn't bother to Google the question first. Back in 1993, the US DOE found that 42% of households reported having some fluorescent light, 9% reported using some CFL. As far as I could find, there is no more recent reliable survey data on that.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cbecs/lit-type.html

So, 9% of households reported some CFL use in 1993. It must be vastly higher now. But in that same year, 80% of Japanese household lighting was from fluorescents. Europeans, 50%.

(http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:niAcqDc9xegJ:www.eere.energy.gov/
buildings/info/documents/pdfs/cfl_lessons_learned_web.pdf+percent+of+households
+using+compact+fluorescent+bulbs&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=17&client=firefox-a)


On an unrelated note, I had not been aware of the mercury issue mentioned in the article. In the past, my home town had required us to treat regular fluorescent bulbs as hazardous waste, up until a few years ago. So they had to be dropped off at the county hazardous wasted dropoff. (Or, my my case, stacked in my basement and ignored.) Then the bulbs got better and that requirement was lifted. Now I read that it would be preferable to dispose of the CFLs at a hazardous waste facility due to the mercury remaining in them. In fact, GE recommends that (http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/faq_compact.htm). Which I will now do, but until this post, had not realized was still an issue. So, thanks for the post. As an aside, the National Electrical Manufacturer's Assn asserts that CFLs, even if disposed of as regular trash, reduce environmental mercury release due to reduction in coal burning for electricity. So, if they are right, and that's not just propaganda, the bulbs remain a net positive on that front even if disposed of in regular trash. But the upshot is that, if possible, they ought to be handled as routine hazardous waste.

The oddest thing I find about fluorescents is that they last so long, the turnover is so low, that every time I go to replace some bulbs in my house the market has changed and I can't find what I bought the last time. So it's continually a challenge, because I know the old bulb fit, but I'm never sure the new bulb will fit until I get it home. It would be nice of the market stabilized around some one design, as incandescents did.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jan 3 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]370027[/snapback]</div>

This is my single greatest concern with the public's use of CFL's. There is tremendous push to get people to use these bulbs in order to save energy yet never does this go hand in hand with the recycling of these bulbs. Yes, there is mercury in them and no matter the limited amount, they should be recycled. If a few million of these bulbs are disposed of in the traditional sense, they will eventually contaminate ground water and soil. I fear that in an attempt to curb GW, we'll do something equally irresponsible and without equal foresight for both the environment and our economic concerns.

Just yesterday, I e mail Waste Management about the matter to see where they're at with a home pick up arrangement for these bulbs. I think many people will be far too lazy to actually bring them to the proper recycling center (I remain certain that many people don't even know that these should be recycled). I haven't heard back from them yet. I've heard the argument that there's much less mercury in these bulbs than what's emitted from our power plants to provide the energy difference to a traditional bulb but I can't see how dumping a bunch of mercury on our land will ultimately be a good thing.

I've posted this link before. It's a site where you can key in your zip code and find a nearby recycling center for almost any of your end products. For CFL's, click on "recycling" under "Energy/Recycling" and then key in your zip code. Flourescent bulbs are listed under the miscellaneous category. If that fails, there's usually a phone number on the packaging containing the bulb. Here it is again.......

http://zoomer.sierraclub.org/#

So far as Wal Mart is concerned, I appreciate the direction in which they're headed on environmental issues. I believe we'll see real strides so far as they're concerned. I believe that they've created a full time position for an individual that determines the areas in which they can cost effectively improve any ramifications to the environment. If they actually follow through with this and maintain longevity, I believe it will be a great catalyst to prompt other retailers. There is also the consideration that while they are making strides to make positive changes to their impact on the environment, they have been a company with an extremely poor enviornmental record. Unless the positive changes far outweigh the existing problems, the net effect will still be deragatory. I'm going to take a "wait and see approach" before spending my dollars there. I'd also like to see them clean up their practices on social issues equal to that of environmental issues before revisiting my position.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Kelly @ Jan 3 2007, 02:57 PM) [snapback]370255[/snapback]</div>

I thought I was hard-core about this until I read your light-bar comment. That's a level to aspire to.

On the issue of households versus actual use, I'm sure you are right. The 1993 Dept of Energy study did quantify that, right down to hours per day per location, but that didn't get into the blurb I read. I'm sure 9% of households meant vastly less than 9% of all bulbs. But if that was going to be the benchmark for the survey, though, it would have to match whatever the Priuschat survey question was.

For what its worth I agree on the lumens issue. I think a 22 watt circline gives out more light than a nominally similar watt CFL, for example. At least when new. But as long as it's close, it'll work.

I've had no memorable problems with durability. On the other hand I was using circline conversions and dedicated fluorescent fixtures up until just a few years ago, so I may have missed the earliest problems. Maybe the right statement is one of those sneaky "up to" modifers, so they last up to 8x as long.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Kelly @ Jan 3 2007, 01:58 AM) [snapback]370016[/snapback]</div>

I use flourescent when possible. Waiting for advances such as non-swirl form factor with instant on for those areas where bulb shows, and more wattage/size options with instant on. CFLs have made some advances such as daylight simultation and 3-way.

 

I replaced everything in my house with CFLs except for some lights that are on a dimmer in the dining room. I think I'll replace the dimmer with a regular switch though because my wife always turns it all the way up and that makes me cringe.

Yes, I even replaced 5 incandescents on a mirrored bathroom light-bar with 2 CFLs, leaving 3 empty sockets, and I don't care how it looks. That might get replaced with 2 nice fixtures eventually, but I'm in no rush.

As for brain-pains caused by left-wing nutters like us having to actually praise Wal-Mart, I don't hesitate for a second to say 'gratz to them. If we are going to do anything about our environment and our energy situation quickly, it will take big companies with serious money to make it happen because our government is really not on board right now. So go down to your local Sprawl-Mart and pick up some CFLs!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Jan 3 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]370363[/snapback]</div>

They sell nice flourescent globe bulbs. I replaced my 8 incandescents with 8 flourescent globes on the light bar. Also found flourescent bulbs for recessed lighting in small and regular. A lot cooler too on upper floors.

 

I've been using Compact Florescents for years, but I buy mine at Home Depot. I haven't replaced that many as they last a really long time.

I would like to see a recycling program for them as their use excalates.

One complaint I have is that by the time I need to replace the bulb, the "power unit" (whatever the big honkin' thing is that the bulb plugs in to so it works...ballast?) is obsolete and I can't get replacement bulbs for it. So I end up buying an entirely new unit. Vicious cycle. But the technology has really come along. They used to be really big. Now they are about the size of a regular incandescent light bulb. (I used to use a 15 or 25 w appliance light bulbs because they were much lower wattage. I also used to leave half of the bulbs in a ceiling fan burned out so only half were lit.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Jan 3 2007, 06:21 AM) [snapback]370027[/snapback]</div>

chogan, do you ever forget anything? Yeah, it was an article about Walmart and GE teaming up to sell CFLs more aggressively. The GE spokesperson said that they hated to see their incandescent market vanishing but that they really had no choice because if they didn't take walmart up on it someone else (Phillips perhaps) would and they'd have missed out.

 

I too have repaced all incandecents with CFls and yes here in california Costco sells the multi packs at below 1$ per because of PGE buydowns . I too have had problems with longevity on CFLs. They are ok in stationary lamps but in fans they last about 6 months. The other problem is in outdoor motion detector lamp floods they don't fit the base of the socket, the ballest is just too big. When I find CFLs that will fit there they stop working in a month. Perhaps because of the cold. I notice also that CFLs unless you buy the ones specifically labeled daylight that the color is anywhere between a yellow all the way to ghastly green. Color temperature varies widely. My chief complaint with them in general though is their poor longevity desite what they claim.
-Paul R. Haller-

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paul R. Haller @ Jan 22 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]379143[/snapback]</div>

The vibration from a fan is probably the kiss of death for a CFL. I leave regular bulbs in these and have added dimmers, so at least I'm saving some energy when I don't need full brightness, which is most of the time for these lights.

 

Our porch lamps are CFL and they've worked fine in sub-zero weather. In the summer they've seen 100+. I've had then out for about 2 years now. We don't run them that often but they're still working. I've noticed that they take a bit longer to get to full output when it's cold out. When they first come on they're pretty weak.

My biggest complaint is the slow warm up time in some outlets around my house. It doesn't seem to be the specific bulbs because I've switched out bulbs that perform well in other sockets and I get the same result. I some sockets, esp when it's cold it can take many minutes for the bulbs to even come on! Fortunately they're twinned and the other bulb always comes on. We just don't get the full light for an arbitrary (seemingly) period of time. In the summer the problem occurs much less often. It's weird. We've been using the Commercial Electric bulbs. I got them a few years ago for cheap at home depot. Next time 'round I think I'll give GE or Philips a go and compare the performance.

 

We've been using the Commercial Electric (CFL?) bulbs. I got them a few years ago for cheap at home depot. Next time 'round I think I'll give GE or Philips a go and compare the performance. [/quote]

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Keep your hopes up. I find that almost everytime I shop for CFL's, I find new versions & the new CFL's are getting much brighter. And even more surprising - - they come up to full power almost instantly.

If I'm looking for a bright CFL, I look at the 'lumens' output rating.

 

I started putting CF's in the early 90's. I paid up to $20 each for some of the early ones. Most of them lasted five or more years. The first porch one lasted eight yet it was outside in the cold and heat. I am only on the second one out there. Recently many of mine have been purchased at Ikea for around $1 each. These things are great. Ikea has some of the smaller base units as well for about $3 each that allowed me to change many more bulbs to CF. A few CF's over the years have been 'duds' and only went about a year, but those are rare and were probobly abused.

Once the push was made to replace the bulbs, they fail so infrequently I buy very few. I can see why the sales numbers seem low.

 

I, too, have replaced all of the bulbs in my place to CFL. The best deal I've seen here are the GE packs at Sam's. I have noticed a difference between manufacturers as far as the warm up time. I have had a nightlight in the hallway and recently replaced it with a .3W l.e.d. nightlight from Home Depot. It works good, even has a swivel to direct the light.

As far as Walmart pushing CFL from a business standpoint, I would imagine there is more profit in those bulbs compared to the incandescent bulbs.