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Wankel Rotary w/base/Atkinson/Miller cycle modes.

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by wwest40, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    ~18:1 base/native compression ratio, DFI plus intercooled SuperCharging, linearly modulateable SC. Triple intake ports with the second and third displaced rotationally and having electromagnetically controlled valve close/open capability. Rotational displacement of the 2nd intake port/valve provides for CR of ~15:1, 3rd valve opening limits CR to <10:1.

    "Otto" mode, idle and/or simple cruise, no boost and the axillary inlet ports are closed, ~18:1 compression ratio.

    Moderate acceleration, engine load, loading and the 2nd intake valve opens resulting in ~12:1 effective CR, no boost, Atkinson cycle.

    HARD acceleration, HIGH engine loads/loading, 2nd & 3rd intake ports now open, engine's "base" compression ratio <10:1, Miller cycle.
    "Measured"/Metered boost as a function of gas pedal position beyond 50%. Engine "base" effective CR now <10:1, SC boost raises effective CR in a linear fashion.

    Positive displacement variable speed SC. SC is driven via a PSD(CVT) summing machine, engine drive as one input, synchronous multiphase AC motor as the second input. Variable frequency inverter drive allows linear control of boost level in depended of engine RPM.

    SC "meters" intake airflow, NO throttle plate.
     
  2. SlowTurd

    SlowTurd I LIKE PRIUS'S

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    is this a "rambling" or from an actual article?
     
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  3. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    I wouldn't call it "rambling..."

    Thinking, thinking logically, "out loud".
     
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    To what end? Normally there's "news" on the threads posted in the alt fuel / hybrid news category.
     
  5. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    Another rotary enthusiast. I used to be one of them. Until Mazda messed up the engine and the RX-8.

    It's dead Jim. ;)
     
  6. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    The rotary seems to be alive and well in the experimental aircraft category and now with the LSA, Light Sport Aircraft Boom(let)...?
     
  7. bedrock8x

    bedrock8x Senior Member

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    It is because of its light weight and high power to weight ratio.
     
  8. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    It's not the weight or power to weight ratio. Try picking a rotary up. I have!! In fact you can put an aluminum V8 in a 3rd gen RX-7 and have the car about 100 lb -lighter-. With more power. It's been done and documented.

    It's the power to size ratio and the possible reliability due to so few moving parts. In "hobby" aircraft.

    It's definitely not the fuel economy!!

    Fuel economy and Mazda's messing up the reliability killed the engine in cars, at least for now. The RX-8 is dead, as I said above.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Audi is considering a 125cc rotary for the genset of the A1 E-tron.
     
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    That doesn't sound right. The rx-8 engine is 247lbs. I don't know of a v8 that weighs that little. It also is about the same power as a high output 4 cylinder turbo like the bmw 2.0 twin power. The rotary can be turbo charged to give it better power to weight, but the advantage has shrunk. As you mentioned their is a power to size advantage also, but in the rx-7 the design and transmission left a space big enough for a v8. In this case a turbo 4 or turbo 6 might be smaller as a system. In the case of a generator for phev a small rotary should be possible.

    The bmw engine should be much more efficient:D An advantage is low cost, but this has been hurt by low volume. These may have a place in range extenders in phevs with good ev range as audi is experimenting on. Mazda is committed to keep the engine alive, but it will never be mainstream unless they can solve the efficiency problems.
     
  11. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Chevy aluminum block LS2 engines weigh about 440 lb fully dressed (ready to run with accessories) I doubt the RX-8 weight you have is fully dressed, but everything I have read says the rotaries are lighter than an LS engine. There is a lack of good info, but a little over 100 lb heavier for an LS engine in an Apples to Apples comparison seems to be a fairly common number.
     
  12. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    I guess part of what I'm pointing out is that using the Toyota Atkinson cycle "simulation" technique, delayed intake valve closing, would improve the rotary's fuel efficiency by 20-30%
     
  13. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    Given the HUGE amount of open/spare space I observed inside an RX engine compartment at the 24 Hours of Daytona vs the Porsche GT's, Vipers, and Corvettes, all fully accessorized, I find it hard to believe ANY V8, or B6, could possibly be lighter.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Mazda Atkinsonized an engine through value control for a the Miller cycle engine in the Millinia years before Toyota brought the Prius to market.

    There is research on Atkinson rotaries.
    http://white-smoke.wetpaint.com/page/Rotary+Engine
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Let's assume the conventional wisdom is true, that a wankel using similar materials has better power/weight or lower cost than a otto ice which has better power to weight than an atkinson ice. The problem is efficiency. When efficiency is taken into account as well as pollution control its hard to beat one of the newer 4-cylinder turbo charged ices.

    Now these things don't scale down. The ecoboost 1L 3cyl is about as small as you get. rotaries can get much smaller. This may make it worthwhile for a range extender on a phev. The key would be lower cost, weight, and size at the expense of some efficiency. If the ice is rarely used it may be a good trade off.
     
  16. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Yes, thermal efficiency a problem with Wankels. I've seen some amazing claims but no highly thermal efficient Wankels out in the wild.

    I don't see any reason an ICE couldn't be made a lot smaller than 1L and maintain similar efficiency to what they have now. Efficiency doesn't fall of a cliff as cylinders get smaller although it does get lower, all else being equal.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The issue with smaller piston engine is running smoothness. Getting a 3 or less cylinder engine balanced is trickier than ones with more cylinders. The fixes will for it will eat into the weight and space savings. Decreasing cylinder volume while keeping the number of cylinders up will increase internal friction as the ratio of cylinder surface area to cyl. volume decreases.
     
  18. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    Y'all are missing the point.

    The current Wankel rotary design now in production have 2 shortcomings. Incomplete "burn" in the power "stroke"(resulting in poor FE and emissions problems), and overlap of the exhaust port and intake port.

    Displacing the intake port rotationally "downstream" to simulate the Atkinson cycle would solve both of these issues.

    Typical Atkinson FE gains, lower intake pumping losses, plus more combustion efficiency, more complete "burn" within the engine itself.

    The resulting loss of HP could be made up for via the temporary/intermittent (passing mode) use of an SC, temporary "miller" cycle, but only with another "now" open valved intake port downstream of the "Atkinson" intake port.
     
  19. wwest40

    wwest40 Member

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    With the advent of home appliance 2-cycle engines being outlawed they have been a few developments, improvments(?) in the low displacement 4-cycle engine market.

    A reduction "geared" toothed timing belt, running in HOT engine oil, for turning the overhead camshaft, for instance. Plus the camshaft gear seems to have some sort of internal/embedded "escapement" that acts as a compression release for easier starting. I'm guessing that the timing belt also acts as a "carrier" to get engine oil up to the camshaft/valve area.
     
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    +1
    Yes, I'm not sure if advancements can be made, but we have had plenty of time with motorcycle engines. Below 1 liter, a 2 or 1 cylinder becomes more efficient and tricks are played to reduce NVH, which can reduce efficiency. That 3 cyl 1L was the size of the insight, so maybe DI allows us to shrink it a little more. VW is playing with a 2 cylinder 0.8 TDI, but I'm sure its rougher than a 3cyl.

    Going power/weight/size that 3cyl 1 liter puts out an efficient 120hp. Its iron block to make it cheaper and smaller, it also heats faster so less of a start up penalty versus a engine like in the prius. It won't make is much smaller, but to make it cheaper and less powerful you can strip out the turbo and make it an Atkinson. This would drop it to about 60 hp. More cost can get squeezed by dropping DI, but this will increase NVH and decrease efficiency. For the bulk of the market 4cyl 1.3 is as small as people want to go, but cost size efficiency have gotten some of these 1L engines in cars.

    Trollbait dropped a link for some Atkinson rotaries. RACE is what you are talking about.
    I'll believe it when someone actually does it and the engine is efficient. I do not believe you will get close to the 38% thermal efficiency of the gen III prius engine, or the 45% efficiency toyota claims they can get from a small turbo di piston ice in the lab.