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WARNING Prius owners do not let anybody top off the refrigerant

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by lech auto air conditionin, Oct 26, 2019.

  1. lech auto air conditionin

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    There is only one correct way to recharge the refrigerant on your Prius whether you have a GEN one all the way through to a Prius prime. Step one completely recover all refrigerant. Step to pull a vacuum down below 500 µm. Step three only recharge your refrigerant with clean dry non-contaminated refrigerant to the under hood sticker recommendation by weight only.
    If any mechanic tells you to recharge your refrigerant by pressure or by a temperature turn around and leave and find another one.
     
  2. 2012 Prius v wagon 3

    2012 Prius v wagon 3 Active Member

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    Very interesting video. Thanks!

    You mention the importance of humidity a lot, early on. Can you explain how that factors in, based on physics? I do believe it is true to some extent, but have not seen an explanation for it. Thanks.
     
  3. lech auto air conditionin

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    I believe it was six grade or seventh grade science class when they dive deep and heavy on the subject and my dad pounding it into me since I was 12 until he was sure I was competent. First semester psychometrics class when you’re taking your 2 1/2 year HVAC course.









    Putting it simply it’s a lot harder to cool 1 pound of air or think of one cubic foot of air that is latent with moisture than 1 pound of air or one cubic foot of air that is dry. But actually that is not 100% true because if you go to extremely dry hair it becomes more difficult to cool extremely dry air then moist air. Using very general terms sloppily.

    With your air conditioning it takes energy will use the word be to use to transfer one substance from one form into another from steam to condensate into water from water into ice or from ice into vapor it takes a massive amount of energy to do that phase change.

    And hot moist claimants the air conditioning is potential to cool the air gets robbed by performing a phase change of the vapor gas water in the air turning it into a liquid water. Work potential of BTUs to change the temperature but first that energy gets used up to change the water first from a vapor into a liquid before any cooling is performed so the more water in the air the more of your potential cooling potential gets used up doing the phase change first and then what is left over will provide you with cooler air.Work potential of BTUs to change the temperature but first that energy gets used up to change the water phase from a vapor into a liquid before any cooling is performed so the more water in the air the more of your potential cooling potential gets used up doing the phase change first and then what is left over will provide you with cooler air.

    This will also put a much heavier load on the evaporator what you will read in your high side and low side pressure‘s

    In air-conditioning airflow is very important so if you even have a slightly restricted cabin air filter or a slightly dirty condenser fins with dirt or debris will greatly affect the airflow but also the speed at which the air flows past the coils of your evaporator will also determine how much humidity is removed into a phase change to change it into water.

    Air moving slowly through a evaporator coil has a longer contact with the cold fins that’s removing more water

    Air moving over the evaporator fins much faster does not have enough contact time to condense out the water from the vapor in the air removes less water

    For human comfort it could be 84° and 13% humidity and you may feel it’s not that hot and you’re not sweating because your sweat is evaporating off your body as fast as your body can produce it providing you with cooling

    Now take that same person and it could be 70° but 90% humidity and you’ll be sweating like a pig in an oven soaked down to your underwear

    So if you cannot cool down the temperature of the air to a low enough temperature instead work at removing the humidity and you will be much more comfortable at a higher temperature.

    And what we believe perceive is true or not true is not important it is what you can measure with your instruments and consecutively repeat the process that is fact.

    At one time we believe it to be true the earth was flat. And at one time we were told to believe the sun rotated around the earth and look what happened to the guy who delivered the message that was not true.
     
    #3 lech auto air conditionin, Oct 26, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Would Toyota dealership service department be a safe bet? I would hope so.
     
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  5. lech auto air conditionin

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    Nope !. But it all depends somebody can be excellent with a scanner they can somebody else can be excellent with breaks another guy is excellent at drivability diagnostics but they could be an absolute disaster when it comes to air-conditioning.

    But it’s better than going to Billy Bob butt crack Who is the same guy when carburetors with Catalytic converter‘s and feedback loops believed it was better to pull the wiring out of the Feedback carburetors because it idle better.
     
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  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    At least at my dealership when I got the AC done they mentioned a lot of the same things you noted, specifically an evacuation, vacuum test (I think) and then recharge.
     
  7. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Please note that I know virtually nothing about the automobile A/C system, Prius or not, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question.

    Is your warning PRIUS owner specific? Or does it apply to other car owners as well? If it is PRUIS specific warning, what makes PRIUS A/C system different from A/C system in any other makes and models? Not that I need refrigerant recharge on any of my cars, it would be nice to remember.
     
  8. lech auto air conditionin

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    There is never a dumb question but only dumb question is the question that is never asked.

    It applies to all compressors even non-electric just some more than others.

    You have to remember with the electric compressors we now have the electric windings of a motor that is like the space heater inside your house consuming watts giving off heat.

    Then back in 1994 when it was mandated we switch from R12 to R134
    Now we switch to a refrigerant that had some self lubricating properties and mixed very well with a refrigerant oil that had good performance properties and did not absorb moisture as much as the lubricants we use today.
    Today’s lubricants whether it be PAG or POE are extremely hydroscopic they just love to suck moisture right out of the air as soon as they come in contact with air.

    Old systems going back into their early 80s and before where everything was mostly fixed displacement piston driven off a mechanical belt attached to an engine.
    Where most compressors had a large sump as a reservoir of roughly 6 ounces of oil with an actual oil pump within the oil pick up tube that was pumping the oil through a crankshaft that was cross drilled in feeding lubricant to the cylinder walls exactly the same as your internal combustion engine.

    Those days are long gone but the education in the automotive field has barely kept up and in the automotive industry they mostly learn by breaking things instead of learning by preventing things.

    Back when the first electric Prius motors were released I started noticing mass failures but it was due to the mechanic shops or body shops that just previously worked on them or service them what is the cause not the compressor them self.

    I always felt very sorry for the customers who owned Prius is because it was their mechanic shops that were causing the failures or the lack of education to get across back to the customer for maintenance of their air-conditioning system.
    Because it’s a electric compressor the cost is quite a bit higher to replace and I really don’t like shops attitudes or lack of education causing undue hardship‘s on customers finances just so they could make money and profit off a customers loss.

    So back to your question is it Prius compressor specific again the question is no it’s the automotive industry’s specific lack of education on hybrid vehicles and most vehicles in general.
    There are so many automotive repair shops that find electronics in the operation of a complete voodoo in magic a mystery that they are afraid of change.
    Then there are the good shops who jump in dive right in with both feet and love the new technology in education is their prime goal to be the best they can above other shops.
    Then there are the predator shops to take advantage of the ignorance of the consumer and put up signs that they are a hybrid specialist when they know virtually nothing because they could charge more money they can easily pull The wool over a eyes of a customer with some fancy writing above their knowledge level and shyster them out of money.
     
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  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    OK, in short, if the car has an electric compressor then follow your suggestion in the video for sure. Even with a non-electric compressor, it's a good idea to follow your suggestion if the car is newer.

    Good to know information. Thanks.
     
  10. E46Prius

    E46Prius Active Member

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    I came across this site which may help clear up what OP is talking about. Apparently you need a particular servicing system which ensures appropriate conductive properties in the small amount of oil that enters the compressor. So that the eletricity isn't transferred through the windings, to the case via the fluid, and to you, resulting in a shock. This is my understanding anyway..

    Use caution when recharging A/C systems on hybrid vehicles | Mobile Air Conditioning Society (MACS) Worldwide Blog
     
  11. lech auto air conditionin

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    its not shock to you that the big problem. It will mostly just go straight to chassis ground. It is the leakage between motor wingdings, windings to case. Also over a long period of time slowly attacking the insulating coating on the motor windings. Unless you are going to go out of your way to cut a hole in the side of the compressor housing well it is running stick your finger onto the the case next to the winding and ground your other hand to the chassis, but you will need to completely isolate the voltage source from the chassis so we make sure 100% currant flows through your finger past your chest down your other arm to the chassis back to currant source. Oh YEA I forgot we need to bypass the pressure switch because when drilling that hole in the side of the compressor case we released all the refrigerant and it cut power to the compressor.

    Short story, I can inject salt water with metal filings into the compressor and stick my tongue on the engine block start the air conditioning motor and not feel a thing.

    Think of the ESTER oil for electric motors as dielectric grease for spark plug boots. ( non-conductive)
     
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