Welcome to the talk like a Democrat thread...

Ethereal · Mar 23, 2007

It's so unfair that my neighbor who works his @$$ off for a living has money that the government doesn't take away and give to me for having more out-of-wedlock babies whose fathers are unknown!

And Big Oil is feeding us all a bunch of lies: we can get all the electricity we need to charge our cars AND our vibrators from the nitrogen that comprises 77% of the air around us. Hey don't you all know that explosives and other high-energy compounds have lots of nitrogen in them so it must be intrinsically energy-packed? My degree (if I have one) is in Wyminns' Studies and that makes me an authoritative expert on physics and chemistry!

Keep your laws off my body and anything that my genetic material may contribute to! Don't you know that if we kill enough unborn babies Superman will rise from the dead, get up out of that casket, and walk? I know this to be true because John Edwards says so!

Finally, I should be encouraged to marry my [husband|wife|life partner|pet|fire hydrant|cucumber|ICE|MG1|MG2|gearshift|cell phone|sex toy] because love is love, no matter what the object!

Oh, and vote Barack in '08! I don't know who the he!! he is or what he stands for, but he's black and he's won one election, so he's bulletproof in my book!

Speaking of bullets, make sure you turn in your legal firearm to be melted down so only muggers, burglars, rapists, and murderers will have guns! That's what I call a safe society!

Don't forget: only you can prevent really sustainable energy by protesting every proposed nuke plant because it might generate waste that either decays really slowly and emits almost nothing or decays really fast and is gone in two days!

Drop your intellect at the door, pick up a shroud of self-righteousness, and have a nice day!

Tyrin · Mar 23, 2007

Doubt you're going to get much bite on this one (except me, I'm a sucker). I personally would find it more impressive if you were a bit more realistic (not that that "other" post is either). I mean c'mon, what was that about Superman? I get it, Chris Reeves, but really. Stem cells are derived from eggs from fertility clinics. Otherwise those eggs are thrown away after the parents conceive or give up. If conservatives have a problem, it should be with fertility treatments, which create disposable embryos, NOT with stem cell research, which tries to put the clinic's leftovers to positive use.

Also, I know lots of liberals who are not against a moderate use of nuclear power, at least in the short term. And I don't know WHO you've been talking to who thinks we can get free energy. Sure, it would help if the oil companies spent more money on alternative energy sources (this is happening slowly).

As for the '08 election, I'm sure G W Bush will help us win that one, so 'nuff said!

"Drop your intellect at the door"? I thought that was the directions for becoming conservative! LOL.

Ethereal · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Mar 24 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]411350[/snapback]</div>

What was that about Superman? I get it, Chris Reeves, but really. Stem cells are derived from eggs from fertility clinics. Otherwise those eggs are thrown away after the parents conceive or give up. If conservatives have a problem, it should be with fertility treatments, which create disposable embryos, NOT with stem cell research, which tries to put the clinic's leftovers to positive use.[/b]
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I was referring to Edwards' remark in the '04 race that if elected, John Kerry would enact stem cell research policies that would lead Reeves to "get up out of that [wheel]chair and WALK!"

I do have a problem with the practices of IVF. But I think it's a poor solution to create a "positive use" which will encourage, rather than discourage, the fertilization of hugely excessive numbers of eggs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Mar 24 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]411350[/snapback]</div>

And I don't know WHO you've been talking to who thinks we can get free energy.
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I guess I should have been more specific: PV, wind, and hydropower are not a basis upon which to build a grid that will sustain a post-19th century way of living. I don't mind being efficient (otherwise why'd I buy the Prius?), but the "green" power technologies I see pushed around here and in general are woefully inadequate as mainstream sources of electricity. Develop them all you like, and by all means use them in off-grid locations or as on-grid adjuncts, but be realistic about their potential and don't demand that I or anyone else live in a cave with a couple watts of LED lighting in order to be "sustainable." Biofuels are sustainable; nuclear fission is sustainable; fusion will certainly be IF the wrinkles ever get ironed out.

But, yes, it was mostly just a bit of equal time for the "other" thread.

Alric · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 10:05 AM) [snapback]411458[/snapback]</div>

I do have a problem with the practices of IVF.
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That's where I draw the line. My son is the result of IVF. Are you telling me you would have deprived me of having a child?

Typical conservative "i'd like to regulate your life" crap.

Allow me to talk like a conservative:

I have a problem with (insert emotionally charged non-issue here) because according to (the bible, my own head, what O'Reilly said) will destroy America! I know most experts in the fields with peer reviewed publications agree on the opposite view. However, I think I am better qualified than them because (the bible, my own head, what O'Reilly said) tells me so.

It's all a conspiracy of the weather channel!

Ethereal · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Mar 24 2007, 12:32 PM) [snapback]411485[/snapback]</div>

That's where I draw the line. My son is the result of IVF. Are you telling me you would have deprived me of having a child?
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No, I didn't say I have a problem with practicing IVF, just how it's typically practiced. PC is full of people who'd like to regulate away other people's opportunity to drive "more car than they need." I find it more than questionable that couples undergoing IVF "need" to generate a large batch of embryos just to have "backups" many of which will almost certainly go to the medical waste incinerator or be harvested like heads of wheat to feed research that might benefit someone, somewhere, someday, somehow.

Would you advocate slaughtering five-year-old orphans to further medical research? They are, after all, just another form of "surplus children."

Alric · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]411497[/snapback]</div>

No, I didn't say I have a problem with practicing IVF, just how it's typically practiced. PC is full of people who'd like to regulate away other people's opportunity to drive "more car than they need." I find it more than questionable that couples undergoing IVF "need" to generate a large batch of embryos just to have "backups" many of which will almost certainly go to the medical waste incinerator or be harvested like heads of wheat to feed research that might benefit someone, somewhere, someday, somehow.

Would you advocate slaughtering five-year-old orphans to further medical research? They are, after all, just another form of "surplus children."
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This is a precise example of "talk like a conservative". There is nothing similar between a single cell embryo and a 5 year old. Only in your head. The reason more than one embryo is generated is because the process is unpredictable. Only using using more than one embryo gives any certainty than the procedure would work. Of course, you did not know or consider that fact before forming an opinion.

Also, my impression is that people at PC do not want to regulate what other people drive. We just want alternatives to Detroit's low mpg deluge to be available.

MarinJohn · Mar 24, 2007

We wanted spell check on PC and we got it so now we look even smarter.

We were so sure Global Warming was real and now most scientists think it is real.

We wanted to slap the tobacco companies down for marketing to kids and we got it.

We've always believed 'our side' was more 'today' and judging by the polls more and more of the populace is coming over to our side.

We're statistically more educated, and with education comes the ability to learn to think for ourselves.

Anecdotal evidence shows we are more generous with our donations.

Why don't they have the intelligence to come up with their own thread titles instead of merely taking the lazy approach and copying?

Oh, what's the point? About a third of the population will never see things our way, so why bother with them?

Ethereal · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Mar 24 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]411519[/snapback]</div>

There is nothing similar between a single cell embryo and a 5 year old. Only in your head. The reason more than one embryo is generated is because the process is unpredictable. Only using using more than one embryo gives any certainty than the procedure would work. Of course, you did not know or consider that fact before forming an opinion.[/b]
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Life is unpredictable. Can I have three kids and cull two of them if the first one makes it to 18?

Unfortunately, the distinction you would like to draw is only in your head. Yes the zygote/embryo doesn't look like a child, but I thought we had grown wise enough to stop judging by appearances sometime around Brown v Board of Education. Embryos have the misfortune to neither look cute nor have money to donate to political parties. They are therefore treated with all the respect we afford dinner rolls: make up a few extra and toss them if we don't need them.

And BTW, yes, I do know the facts about IVF. It's covered pretty well in med school.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Mar 24 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]411519[/snapback]</div>

Also, my impression is that people at PC do not want to regulate what other people drive. We just want alternatives to Detroit's low mpg deluge to be available.
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Really?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Mar 18 2007, 02:49 AM) [snapback]407760[/snapback]</div>

If it were up to me, I'd like to make 5000+ lb. vehicles almost illegal for consumers/the general public to buy as personal vehicles.
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Alric · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 06:20 PM) [snapback]411642[/snapback]</div>

Life is unpredictable. Can I have three kids and cull two of them if the first one makes it to 18?

Unfortunately, the distinction you would like to draw is only in your head. Yes the zygote/embryo doesn't look like a child, but I thought we had grown wise enough to stop judging by appearances sometime around Brown v Board of Education. Embryos have the misfortune to neither look cute nor have money to donate to political parties. They are therefore treated with all the respect we afford dinner rolls: make up a few extra and toss them if we don't need them.
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Eggs also don't have a nervous system or even a single neuron. Are you going to give the same rights to plants and all other embryos from the plant and animal kingdom? Or to every single cell of the epidermis you shed?

Another point. Do you eat meat? Any adult animal has an infinitely higher capacity for suffering than a single cell embryo. According to your ethical standards, if you were in any way consistent and not a specieist, you could not even be vegetarian.

IsrAmeriPrius · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 02:20 PM) [snapback]411642[/snapback]</div>

And BTW, yes, I do know the facts about IVF. It's covered pretty well in med school.[/b]
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Are we supposed to be impressed by the fact that you are a physician?

Alric · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Mar 24 2007, 06:49 PM) [snapback]411649[/snapback]</div>

Are we supposed to be impressed by the fact that you are a physician?
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Not me. I am a veterinarian.. :lol:

Ethereal · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Mar 24 2007, 06:49 PM) [snapback]411649[/snapback]</div>

Are we supposed to be impressed by the fact that you are a physician?
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Only insomuch as it makes Alric's accusation that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding IVF a little less plausible. Otherwise, no, not really.

Alric · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 07:02 PM) [snapback]411653[/snapback]</div>

Only insomuch as it makes Alric's accusation that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding IVF a little less plausible. Otherwise, no, not really.
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Well. You didn't seem to know the reason why multiple eggs are fertilized.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 07:02 PM) [snapback]411653[/snapback]</div>

I find it more than questionable that couples undergoing IVF "need" to generate a large batch of embryos just to have "backups" many of which will almost certainly go to the medical waste incinerator or be harvested like heads of wheat to feed research that might benefit someone, somewhere, someday, somehow.
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Couples that undergo IVF do not ""need" to generate a large batch of embryos just to have "backups"". This is what the procedure requires and its not as you snidely imply a lack of character.

Ethereal · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Mar 24 2007, 06:36 PM) [snapback]411647[/snapback]</div>

specieist
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I thought we had spell check now...or do we need "sanity check"?
And yes, I'm one of those unenlightened who don't know that "animals are people too."
They're not. Not that that makes it OK to abuse them, but they're not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Mar 24 2007, 07:07 PM) [snapback]411655[/snapback]</div>

Well. You didn't seem to know the reason why multiple eggs are fertilized.
<SNIP>
This is what the procedure requires and its not as you snidely imply a lack of character.
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OK, then you can explain why many of those embryos which "the procedure requires" end up as leftovers to be "recycled" as stem cells. The procedure requires more than one zygote. It is expedient to make up batches of embryos large enough for several attempts, each attempt involving more than one embryo. If the first attempt is successful, then the remaining embryos become "leftovers."

Alric · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 07:17 PM) [snapback]411656[/snapback]</div>

I thought we had spell check now...or do we need "sanity check"?
And yes, I'm one of those unenlightened who don't know that "animals are people too."
They're not. Not that that makes it OK to abuse them, but they're not.
OK, then you can explain why many of those embryos which "the procedure requires" end up as leftovers to be "recycled" as stem cells. The procedure requires more than one zygote. It is expedient to make up batches of embryos large enough for several attempts, each attempt involving more than one embryo. If the first attempt is successful, then the remaining embryos become "leftovers."
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Retrieving and implanting the eggs are very unpleasant procedures and you don't want to repeat them if not necessary. You don't know how many you will need. Actually you don't know how many you will obtain to begin with. Its a matter of real life success ratios and probabilities.

They are leftovers as any rational personal recognizes they are not people but single cells.

Tyrin · Mar 24, 2007

Yeah, what Alric said...

My question is, why are conservatives all riled up about abortion/stem-cell/IVF (although many don't understand it, present company possibly excluded), but think we should cut funding for social welfare, human services, public health care, and public education? Explain how this does not put the rights of unborn children ABOVE the rights of those already here?

Everyone who thinks abortion is immoral should be required to adopt. There are too many unwanted, neglected, and abused children in the world already.

(BTW, I am PERSONALLY, not politically, against abortion, and AM looking into adoption).

Ethereal · Mar 24, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Mar 25 2007, 12:48 AM) [snapback]411747[/snapback]</div>

My question is, why are conservatives all riled up about abortion/stem-cell/IVF (although many don't understand it, present company possibly excluded), but think we should cut funding for social welfare, human services, public health care, and public education? Explain how this does not put the rights of unborn children ABOVE the rights of those already here?
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Umm, if I understand your comparison correctly, then my answer would be that it's already illegal to kill "those of us already here" (outside the womb). Do you understand conservatives to be supporting any protections beyond that for the pre-born?

Best wishes with adoption. BE PATIENT; it's all worth it at the end.

I do have to ask, since you bring it up: how is being personally, but not politically, against abortion any different from "Well, I'd never personally knock over a liquor store, but I'd never deny someone else's right to do it"?

Wrong is wrong; have the balls to call it for what it is.

galaxee · Mar 25, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]411751[/snapback]</div>

I do have to ask, since you bring it up: how is being personally, but not politically, against abortion any different from "Well, I'd never personally knock over a liquor store, but I'd never deny someone else's right to do it"?

Wrong is wrong; have the balls to call it for what it is.
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circumstance changes perspective. there is no black and white here, saying "wrong is wrong" is ridiculous.

i'd also personally never eat rancid meat, and won't deny someone else the ability to do so... but does that make it wrong because i don't like it? nope.

Tyrin · Mar 25, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 24 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]411751[/snapback]</div>

Umm, if I understand your comparison correctly, then my answer would be that it's already illegal to kill "those of us already here" (outside the womb). Do you understand conservatives to be supporting any protections beyond that for the pre-born?

Best wishes with adoption. BE PATIENT; it's all worth it at the end.

I do have to ask, since you bring it up: how is being personally, but not politically, against abortion any different from "Well, I'd never personally knock over a liquor store, but I'd never deny someone else's right to do it"?

Wrong is wrong; have the balls to call it for what it is.
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So, thank you for the non-answer. You proved my point. It's illegal/immoral to kill a child, but its perfectly acceptable to let them rot in an abusive household. It's certainly not the governments problem.

Personally against abortion means that I would choose to keep my own child, or give it up for adoption if I couldn't raise it well. It doesn't mean I believe that embryos have rights or feelings, or are even humans yet. I DON'T believe it is wrong for someone to have an abortion if the alternative is to poorly raise an "unwanted" child. However, if they DO choose to have the child, then we as a society have a responsibility to make sure that child is safe, fed, clothed, educated, and loved.

Oh yeah, and why do many conservatives support war and the death penalty? I thought killing was immoral?

Conservatives are never good with those details...

Alric · Mar 25, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Mar 25 2007, 12:58 AM) [snapback]411751[/snapback]</div>

I do have to ask, since you bring it up: how is being personally, but not politically, against abortion any different from "Well, I'd never personally knock over a liquor store, but I'd never deny someone else's right to do it"?
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Robbery is illegal and commited against another fellow human. Abortion is legal and a personal matter.

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