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We're now a 1-1/2 car family; bought a TH!NK City EV

Discussion in 'Th!nk EVs' started by Rokeby, May 12, 2012.

  1. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Longish, with no apologies. ;)

    [​IMG]

    This funny, weird, little car is a hand-in-glove fit for the majority of our daily transportation needs. The "1/2 car" in the title refers only to the cars size, not its capabilities or our satisfaction with it.

    We live 8 miles from the city center, our daily two person commute is 27 miles round trip. Essentially everything we need is within a 20 mi radius of our home; 4 major shopping centers, 5 hospitals, and all other necessities/amenities. A major factor in the purchase is that EUROSTAR, the dealer/service center, is 21 miles away. (Of course we don't expect to see much of them, the first service at 12K miles is essentially a brake system check.)

    The TH!NK has a 100 mi max range, more than we need on a daily basis, even factoring a probable 25% reduction in cold weather. I haven't yet used either air conditioning or cabin heat/defrost so I don't know what kind of SOC hit they produce. Allegedly the TH!NK is capable of 100 MPGe. I just bought a Kill-a-Watt meter so I can compares miles driven to electricity used, but I haven't used it yet. I doubt that I'm seeing max MPGe's. I tend to drive 5MPH faster than when in the Prius. And I have to admit, it's a lot of (inefficient) fun to goose the go-pedal to get a fast start or squirt past ICE-bound cars who are braking for a tight turn.

    Regen is in the go-pedal only, just like the Prius. But, due the power usage gauge being an analog needle-type, knowing that you're in a "no-arrows glide" state has proven difficult… there is a slight difference in the faint motor whine as you go from power to no power to regen. But as a noobie, I'm never sure. The car has two drive modes; D(rive) and E(conomy). In D mode, regen is very slight and for all practical purposes difficult to feel.

    However, E mode is a wholly different experience. When you ease up on the go-pedal, regen drag is really strong and speed reduction is very rapid. You can easily modulate regen drag with the go-pedal when underway in traffic, etc.. As far as I can tell, there is no electronic interaction between regen and the friction brakes. When you hit the brake pedal, that's what you get. But the car does continue to regen when you're on the brakes. If you're used to "driving without brakes" for max FE in a Prius, driving in E mode results in needing friction braking only for the final 20-30 ft. when you mis-calculate the timing on a stop sign or traffic light.

    We only have 120V AC charging now. We may not even have to upgrade to 240V and its attendant expense. On 120V, the TH!NK charges at a rate of ~6 miles/hr. For the last week we typically drove 30 - 40 miles a day for commuting and errands. Thats up to 8 hrs on charge. The charger is on an aftermarket timer from 11 pm to selected shut off to take advantage of lowest electrical rates from 11 pm to 6 am.

    We don't charge to 100% SOC because we don't have too for range, and limiting charge to 80-90% should extend HV battery life. Likewise we've not been below 30% on the low end.

    FWIW, all EVs that I'm familiar with have a 12V battery just like the Prius, and for the same reasons. But, due to the OEM standard in the US air conditioning bits and pieces in the very small engine bay, it can only be gotten to by putting the car on a lift. (This is the only really dumb arrangement,/feature that I've discovered so far.) But there is an always ON 12V accessory plug so you can boot up from a small battery pack or charger,)

    We're keeping our GEN II for travel, trips with more than 2 occupants, and large volume hauling. Sometime in the future we will have to decide if we really need the car. There is an Enterprise rental agency ~1/4 mile from us. We drive our Prius once a week, extended weekend shopping and errands, just to keep the 12V battery charged. The differences between the two cars has actually renewed our appreciation for the finesse, sophistication, and technology of the Prius and we look forward to driving it again.

    So far, we have only two irritations with the car. Due my 6' 1" height and a lowish upper edge of the windshield, I have to do some neck craning/leaning forward to see traffic lights when first in line. The second is purely Prius induced. The TH!NK does not have an SKS-like system. So that means you have to have key in hand to open the door, either remotely or directly by key. And the key is necessary to start the car. The Prius has spoiled us, and needing to remember to dig out the key is now an irritant that has to be lived with.

    We named our Barcelona red Gen II, Amapola (Spanish, poppy), both for its color and my becoming a grandfather. I wanted to name the Energy Red TH!NK, Amp-apola, but was over-ruled (If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody gonna' be happy!) and she's Esperanza (Spanish, hope… it all works out over the long run!)

    All in all, we don't feel that we have had to make any compromises with the TH!NK in our particular driving situation. So far, it has exceeded both our needs and expectations.

    There is a Yahoo group for the TH!NK.
    Yahoo Groups: think_ev

    Here is my earlier post with additional info on the car if you're interested…
    http://priuschat.com/forums/other-cars/107793-there-100-think-city-evs-available-now-22-500-a.html

    N.B. Curently there is some e-devil mis-match between my computer/browser and the Eurostar web site. As a result, I can't see anything related to the TH!NK on the site. I spoke to the folks there and they assure me that info on the TH!NK is there, I just can't see it as most of their pages are blacked out for me using MacBook and Safari.
     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    congrats! what made you choose it over a leaf?
     
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  3. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Bisco,

    A number of factors lead to our going with the TH!NK.

    The LEAF was more car than we need, or want. It's a four seater, and
    there were many golly-gee whiz features that we don't think we need.

    It was more likely that at some point off in the future we would have
    gotten an i(MiEV) before a LEAF. But then the i(MiEV) has a max range
    around 70 miles, IIRC. But the prices for both were too high.

    The always-on communication between a LEAF and LEAF Headquarters
    frankly gives me the creeps.

    On the face of it, the TH!NK has the same battery range as the LEAF,
    100 miles. YMMV of course.

    The TH!NK goes for $22,500, then there's the $7500 tax credit which we
    qualify for. So the TH!NK comes in at about half the cost of a LEAF.
    Applicable to both cars, in Maryland you don't pay the 6% sales tax on
    a new EV; $1350 not spent for the THINK.

    That there are even TH!NKs for sale at any price is a weird situation.
    I would not have gotten one if EUROSTAR, the dealer/service provider
    was not close by, only 21 miles.

    The service/warranty situation is by most standards uncertain. I admit,
    this is the real gamble in this gambit. It heartens me to see that a
    member on the Yahoo TH!NK group is getting full factory support, parts
    and a tech visit, with a PCU replacement issue.

    I can see that currently the TH!NK is not for many. There is hope for
    the future. It's said that TH!NK will reposition itself in the US with a
    redesigned 2-seat City...

    [​IMG]

    and a new 4-door. Higher prices are expected of course.

    We'll have to wait and see...
     
  4. fjpod

    fjpod Member

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    Congrats. I entered the EV world today also with an iMiev. Having a dealer nearby was important to me.
     
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  5. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    fjpod,

    And congrats to you too. :rockon:

    If you get only half the satisfaction and enjoyment that we have, your
    i(MiEV) will be a huge success.

    When I was in my information gathering stage I joined both LEAF and
    i(MiEV) boards. Learning from users who are enthusiastic and actually
    doin'-in out on the road was a real help. (As you've no doubt noticed,
    there are a few such folks here too.)

    I see that you're also a member at myimiev.com. I think ;) you're in
    good company over there. It's getting more members and more active
    every day.

    The folks over at mynissanleaf.com are quite a bunch. Really
    aggressive in digging into the complexity of their cars. Some of the
    members operate at the extreme upper end of their range on a daily
    basis. It's interesting to see what that entails. It's also interesting to
    read about folks going on etended trips using L3 chargers out on the
    road. Cool!
     
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Thanks for the report. It sounds like the ideal car for your situation. I'd have bought one had it been available a few years ago, as an upgrade from my Xebra.

    One nit-pick on your report:
    Regen on the Prius is mostly on the brake pedal. There's just a little regen on the go pedal in the Prius. At least, that's how my 2004 is. (In my Tesla, regen is only on the go pedal, and there's a LOT of it. 30 kW at certain speeds.)

    More people need to realize that a second family car can be a short-range EV, saving a lot of gas. One big advantage is for very short trips: If an ICE is shut off before the entire system is fully warmed up, it suffers wear and tear. Using an EV for those short trips avoids that.

    So, congratulations on your new car. I know you're going to love driving electric.

    Oh, and you can get a battery minder for the Prius and then you won't have to drive it every week, unless you need to use it for something. I got one from my Toyota dealership, and they installed a pigtail plug for me, so I don't have to open anything up to plug it in.
     
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  7. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    daniel,

    I've been hoping you'd post. I've followed your EV adventures and
    misadventures, Zebra to Tesla, since I came to PC 4 years ago.
    You've had quite a ride!

    And now we're beginning to understand why you've been such a staunch
    EV user/supporter. I won't say that we have as strong philosophical
    convictions as you do on the matter. However, I will venture to say
    that we are having as much fun as you do, albeit in a more restrictive
    mostly-urban setting.

    I've thought about a battery minder for the Prius. Problem is, to do so
    I'll have to run another extension cord across the back lawn; the cars
    are parked some distance apart. For now, as a preliminary measures
    I've turned the SKS system off and I'm monitoring the 12V battery via
    ScanGauge.

    We'll see how things go. I'll re-evaluate at the end of the week.

    Because the TH!NK has that capacity to be so very energy efficient and
    low cost tp operate, I have to fight the urge to just jump in the car and
    be-bop down the road to buy something that really isn't needed right
    away. With only the Prius, we rigidly questioned every excursion,
    bundled errands, and aggressivly planned the most efficient route.
    This is wholly an internal contest with anyone not involved none the
    wiser when the choice is made; the immediate fun thing, or the right
    thing to do...

    Character defining moments?
     
  8. ataylorracing

    ataylorracing ataylorracing

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  9. Michgal007

    Michgal007 Senior Member

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    So cute! Congrats.
     
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  10. fjpod

    fjpod Member

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    Thanks, and good luck to you as well.
     
  11. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Michgal007,

    I think ;) the car is weird, but I get many comments like,
    "It doesn't look like any other car I've ever seen. Gee, it's cute!"
    Many "cute" comments from women. The car may be a babe magnet.
    Apparently the Norwegians who designed the exterior couldn't
    care less what other cars look like. Take it or leave it. I like that
    kind of attitude.

    ataylorracing,

    It's a cool little car... but it is bigger than a Smart Car, footprint about
    like the Mini.

    I'm not hawking this car as a solution to anybody's car/transport
    needs, nevermind the 80% of the driving public for whom it might
    work. There are just too many factors that need to be considered.
    Here's why:

    * You have to TH!NK really hard and long before you buy one.
    As an example, lets talk about range. (This will be a probable worst
    case scenario.) I've read that the car is capable of 100 miles per
    charge. Yeah, maybe. But even if it will you'd be a fool to do so every
    day. Cautious users don't charge above 80% SOC or run the HV battery
    below 20% SOC unlesss it's needed. So we're down to a 60% SOC
    useable on a daily basis. (Without getting too technical, 60% SOC is
    about 60 miles range.) And in temps below 50 degF, i could loose 25%
    range. Now, I've got 45 miles available daily. In the dead of winter
    there will be a hit caused by the heater. In the summer the air
    conditioner will cause a hit. Let's say up to 10% SOC for each. OOPS!
    we're down to only about 35 miles a day in the winter. So lets go back
    to those very conservative charging/use constraints. If we charge to
    90% SOC and allow discharge to 10%, we get back up to a daily range
    of 55 miles/day.

    (This is a quick broad-brush presentation, so don't try to hammer me
    on decimal places and my estimates. It won't work.)

    I've spoken to experienced EVers, Teslars in fact, who say you should
    plan your trips based on 2/3 of available range. Why? Simple: 2/3 to
    get there and back, 1/3 "just in case." Just in case what? "You never
    know!"

    Back to my worst case scenario, 35 miles range. 2/3 of that is ~24
    miles, just under the 26 mi I need for my commute.

    * You have to TH!NK every time you put it on charge. What will we be
    doing tomowwow? How much charge time to get from where my SOC is
    to get to where I want it in the moorning. What is the expected weather
    tomorrow? I've already touched on hot and cold weather. But what
    about heavy rain? This can cause up to a 5 MPG hit in a Prius. Better
    add 5-10% to the SOC.

    * You have to TH!NK when you drive. Damn, this little car is fun to
    drive! Sufficiently quick on urban streets to squirt through traffic.
    Very quick steering for snicking from lane to lane if you feel you
    have to... or what the hell, just because you want to...
    OOPs, just lost 5% SOC, ~5 miles range!

    We can live with these numbers at this price point.
    No sweat, no range anxiety.
    I can't and won't say that this is true for anybody else.

    You pays your money and sleeps in the bed you've made. :p
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Cool :)
    I hope you give periodic updates.
    Enjoy, and Good luck with the car.
     
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  13. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    :D :cheer2:

    I've left the Prius parked for as long as a month, and once for a bit longer, with SKS off and the headlight switch off (rather than just letting the car turn them off) without any problems, and this was before I had the battery minder. Both the OEM battery and the first replacement lasted about 4 years, which has been typical for me in all the cars I've owned.

    Anyway, a couple of weeks is definitely safe, but if you're letting it sit for a month, a minder is a really good idea.

    Which car "makes sense" is an extremely subjective matter. Any EV will "make sense" for a certain driving pattern. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that "saving money" is the only reason to buy an EV, because by the "saving money" criterion there'd probably be only about three gasoline cars that would "make sense," and never purchased new.

    Almost nothing we buy "makes sense" based on "need" or financial consideration. From the houses we live in to the food we eat, most of our decision process is based on things other than need, and costs more than necessary. My car "makes sense" for me because I can afford it and I enjoy driving it and I'm willing to pay more to be able to drive without gasoline. Gasoline makes no sense at all if you consider what it does to the environment, what it does to our balance of trade and by extension our economic security, and the more important uses it could be put to other than as fuel. (Petrochemicals, fertilizer, etc.) But my car would make no sense at all to a family of 3 or more, or for someone who did not have sufficient disposable income.

    I think your range estimates are overly pessimistic. The Xebra, for example, lost half its range in cold weather when it had lead batteries, but didn't seem to lose any range from the effects of cold with the LiFePO4, and maybe 10% from use of the heater.

    But the 2/3 rule is a good one.

    One of the things I like about the Tesla, compared to the Leaf (aside from the performance) is that the range is so great that I never need to worry about it. I can run the heater full blast in winter (for a few minutes anyway, because after that it's too hot in the car :D) and I can jackrabbit all I want, and drive 75 on the freeway, and still have more range than I need.
     
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  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Cool car.
    Some states like CO/GA with big EV credits you could be talking <$10k maybe.
     
  15. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    daniel,

    You are correct, my range reduction/prediction numbers come from
    monitoring comments at mynissanleaf.com, so they're based on a
    different car. But that's all had to go on when I was contemplating the
    buy. I used their numbers for what i considered the worst case, and then some. :rolleyes:

    But, then and now, as far as range on the road goes, I will always err
    on the side of near certainty of getting home every time I start out. :D

    Sometime soon I intend to charge the TH!NK to 100% SOC and drive it
    down to 10% (to 5% if it will let me go that low) to get a my-use
    specific max range. I'm thinking I'll go back and forth on my commute
    route, and at the end do short loops in my neighboorhood. Separately, I
    should also probably do the same at PSL on nearby highways as well.

    Given the much smaller area I use my TH!NK, I hope to be in the
    same "never need to worry about it" situation as you with respect to
    range.
     
  16. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    When I first got the Xebra, and again when I switched to the LiFePO4 pack, I drove downtown and back, then made a big loop around my neighborhood, and then consecutively smaller loops, until the pack seemed about to die. That was how I determined my 40-mile range (the same with both packs, though the lithium pack was some 500 lbs lighter). But I probably hurt the batteries doing that. The car had no SoC gauge. Just a voltmeter. Not a terribly accurate gauge of remaining range. But once I knew my range, the trip odometer was my range meter.

    The Tesla has two separate remaining-range indicators. One "ideal" (i.e. 55 mph steady speed, flat road) and one extrapolating from my usage over the past 30 or 40 miles, including any heat or A/C use. Plus, of course, the trip odometer.