What are we coming to?

Let me get this straight: Alabama has codified, into law, an ALLOWABLE level of alcohol for minors. For 11 year old girls.

Let's try the adults in the legislature FIRST for allowing such a "law" to be written.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 7 2007, 11:34 AM) [snapback]474698[/snapback]</div>

First and foremost, and this is so important I'll say it several times in this reply, what's in the news is the way the world ISN'T, else it wouldn't be news. So these stories (a microscopic four episodes in a nation of 300,000,000 people) are NOT representative of ANY relevant portion or our society, they are aberrations. Any concern that these events reveal a generation gone bad is misplaced. News is news because it's unusual, not because it portrays what's normal.

That said, I'll say further that even these transgressions are piffling trifles against the examples displayed by adult society of obscene behavior (and even condoned, repeatedly and incessantly, in the popular media of television and motion picture stories).

I laughed out loud at the kidnapping. I'm not a parent so am not going to have the same sensitivity to an abducted 1 year old that its parents will (or should) have, but I believe getting the police involved in this case was a mistake. The actual harm (other than temporary emotional distress) was nil, even the potential for harm was remote. I gotta say, that ransom note demanding the money be "left on the sofa" and signed "the Kidnappers" had me laughing so hard I had to get up and get a glass of water. Certainly the miniature perpetrators of this dastardly crime should face some parental discipline (if they can keep a straight face while administering it), but getting the police involved, and putting children into the hands of the justice department, to my mind constitutes an even greater crime and obscenity than the original childish transgression.

If we need to worry about what's becoming of the younger generation, the news ain't the place to look for what might be amiss, but at the things we take for granted that would never make the news. What those things would be - well, that's what chatboards and friends are for - to sound out whatever seems important. For my part, I've got a big beef with a culture that imposes deliberate sexual ignorance on its youth, but at the same time sees nothing wrong with the daily portrayal of consequenceless murder and mayhem (even its condonement) to the youngest of its impressionable citizens.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 7 2007, 05:36 PM) [snapback]474789[/snapback]</div>

So I would gather that you think that kids drinking is bad. I would have to disagree. I would point to our friends across the Atlantic in Europe where drinking is a normally accepted part of daily life. Alcohol is consumed with most meals including lunches served in company cafeterias. Somehow they don't have lots of people heading back to work drunk. Children are introduced to alcohol at an early age by their parents because beer and wine are just another drink served at meals.

That compares to the US were alcohol consumption is taboo even for many adults and children are forbidden any contact with it until they reach 21. Then suddenly the floodgate opens and a 21 year old is suppose to drink modestly and responsibly. The reason you have such a high occurrence of underage binge drinking is because that is the only way alcohol is available. If you or a friend manages to buy some alcohol or steal some out of your parents liquor cabinet it is then time to party and drink all you can. This teaches kids to drink as much as possible whenever it is available instead of moderate and responsible consumption.

I'll give you two personal examples:

My wife grew up in a family were alcohol was available to children if they wanted starting at an age of about 8 to 12. This started out as a sip then a half glass of wine at thanksgiving, etc. When she and her sister were teenagers and everyone we knew were heading out to parties and getting drunk, her parents made it known that if they wanted alcohol they could have it as long as they followed some rules. Those rules were that the alcohol would be consumed in moderation and be consumed only at home and that they would not leave the house after the first sip was taken. If they follow the rules then just tell us what you want and we'll get it. Today, my wife and her sister drink very much in moderation. They may have drink with dinner 2 to 3 times a week and maybe 2 drinks on a weekend.

My brother and I grew up in a family where alcohol was not consumed and was expressly forbidden. So anytime my brother would hear of a party he would go out and drink as much as he could. But he had to be home so he would end up driving home drunk most Saturday nights. Once he got to college and out of the house he jumped up to three 24 bottle cases per week because he could drink any night. Though he drinks less now, he still drinks with the intention of getting drunk. If he drinks, he has at least 6 to 10 drinks to insure a good long buzz for the night. He can't understand why anyone would have just one beer or a glass of wine. To him that is wasting alcohol.

Which method do you think works better?

 

I am with Godiva on this. For those who think these examples are isolated incidents, you will understand when these happen to your family or friends. There is nothing funny about a baby being stolen (if kidnapped is a strong word) by anyone. What if the kid had asthma and needed his medicine?

I am sure you can teach a 7 year old how to drive. Should we teach driving at a young age too, so they won't drive like maniacs when they grow up?

 

Yeah, like those perfectly behaved soccer fans.

Too many people labor under the myth that "it's European, therefore by definition it's better".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 7 2007, 07:45 PM) [snapback]474896[/snapback]</div>

This is the part where you say, "Jane, you ignorant slut," guys.

Seriously, though... you might want to re-continue this thread when you aren't so down on life and current events...

 

Unfortunately, these types of incidences are common at summer concerts at the PNC Bank Arts Center.

Concert alcohol arrests include a 14-year-old
Twelve of the 50 or more people arrested Monday night on charges of underage drinking at the PNC Bank Arts Center were younger than 18, and the youngest was 14, a State Police spokeswoman said Tuesday, according to a report in the Asbury Park Press.

The number of arrests at Monday's show, headlined by The Fray, exceeded the 49 underage-drinking arrests made during the June 6 Fall Out Boy show. A total of 53 arrests were made that night, ac-cording to the State Police.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2007/06/c...s_includ_1.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 7 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]474698[/snapback]</div>

You're sounding a little conservative here, are you sure this is your position on this? :lol:

I think Rush Limbaugh and O'Rieley could use your post as a press release without changing a word... Wow..

As for me... I think the parents of these kids should just look them in the eye, tell them to not do it again, and we can forget this stuff ever happened. We don't want to mark these kids for life or ruin their futures by punishing them for this stuff. (I just wanted to take the liberal position today).

 

You'll know how far gone this country is when the kids start putting their prowess in Half Life 2 on their resumes. Can't add, subtract, multiply or divide, can't construct a coherent sentence, much less an original thought, don't know history, suck at science and can barely tie a garbage bag but they can speed through a 3D game in record time without cheats using the extreme level. Boy, aren't they the wunderkinds

 

I agree with Godiva on this one, It seems our values are going out the window.

I caught a 11 yr old girl performing oral sex on a 13 yr old boy in a local park. I called thier parents to come pick them up. The girls mother was shocked she couldn't believe her baby girl even knew how to do this stuff. The boys parents where P/O'd at ME as this was a waste of tax payers money and that I should be out finding real criminals.... :huh:

In June after the schools let out for summer, the open house teen parties start.

One night we had a complaint of two teens completely naked having sex on a car on a neighborhood street, and that there was a large party going on at the home next door.
.
when we arrived the teens where done.. We checked the open house and found the parents sh*t faced in the back yard and other teens having sex in the house & back yard. There were 30 teens aged 12 - 20 male & female almost all were drunk on beer to hard liquor.

The parents where served with notices to appear in court (contributing to the delinquency of a minor x30) & the teens we where able to catch we called their parents to come and pick them up.

Most of the parents that came to pick up their kids seemed very concerned, however there where about 14 that seemed upset that they had to come pickup their kids..

This is happens all over, and they dont report it on the news.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 7 2007, 07:13 PM) [snapback]474824[/snapback]</div>

First let me ask you a question. Do you drink? Do you have issues with people drinking? From your message and description of "new flavored hard liquor drinks" you don't have much knowledge of alcoholic drinks. If you are referring to mixed drinks such as margaritas and such, then these are very old. Yes, they come up with new ones all the time but the concept is old. If you are referring to flavored alcoholic drinks such as Mike's Hard Lemonade, Smirnoff Ice, and Zima, then these are at least a decade old and are just building on the success of wine coolers which are decades old. They are quite popular with women but I must admit I find them quite tasty as well. Also these are not "hard liquor but malt liquor drinks that are about 5% alcohol by volume or the same as beer. Speaking of beer, this is still the drink of choice for underage drinkers. They don't drink fine liquors or wines , they are not blending up mixed drinks, but instead drinking cheap domestic beer, usually in cans. As a twenty something with quite a few college age friends, most of which are underage drinkers or former underage drinkers I would say I'm a bit closer to this than a lot of people here.

Now I'm not going to argue that 12 year olds getting drunk is a positive thing, but it's not new. I won't argue that binge drinking is good either. However I see this as the symptom not the problem. The problem is the American attitude towards alcohol. It is the same attitude that we have towards sex. We choose avoidance and ignorance instead of education and then seem amazed that our children make bad and ignorant choices.

Your statistics of teenagers drinking is nothing new either. A 14 year old is a freshman in high school and high school freshmen have been drinking since before my father was in high school. The only difference was that in the 50's and 60's they were only 4 years underage instead of 7 years underage as they are now. Alcohol is easy to get even if you are underage so the only big thing is not getting caught in possession or driving under the influence. For example by brother purchased alcohol from a liquor store with a doctored birth certificate. It should be obvious to anyone that someone that uses a birth certificate as ID is not legitimate but they still sold to him for years.

Now to your assertion that my wife's parent had better supervision than mine. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You couldn't be more wrong.

My wife and her sister had no supervision. When they were 8 to 10 they were riding their bicycles 8 to 10 miles to friends houses. Their mother had no idea where they were and didn't care. They had no bedtimes when younger or curfews as teenagers. In the summer time she would literally lock them out of the house. As long as they were back home by dusk it was fine. They were not disciplined either. If they got into trouble they may be grounded but within a couple of hours their mother would get tired of watching them and send them off on their way. Of course once they got cars the range and freedom of movement got bigger. So supervision, NO.

What her parents did right was communication. Questions about sex, pregnancy, birth control? Just ask. Questions about alcohol and drugs? Again, just ask. Questions about boys, relationships, etc. Just ask. If they had a question about anything they could ask their parents. No topic was taboo or off limits.

Now my parents. We couldn't leave our block long street without an adult escort. My mother had a network of other mothers that would act as "spies" and let her now what we were doing if she wasn't there. We didn't go to movies or watch movies. We didn't listen to music except hymns. We attended church 4 to 5 times per week. We HAD SUPERVISION and WE HAD DISCIPLINE!

So you might ask how my brother would ever get away to get into trouble. That was easy. He did it the old fashion way. He LIED. He had other people lie and say that he was with them. The other thing that really helped out was that my parents were also strong believers in work. Both my brother and I got our first jobs delivering newspapers when we were 10. When he was 16 he got a car and a job after school at the local super center with a 6pm to 12 shift. Of course this was part time and didn't have a regular schedule. So if there was a party he wanted to go to he just said he picked up another shift. Now he didn't need to worry about being back home until 1am when everyone at home was in bed. The store was 40 minutes away on the other side of town so their wasn't much chance of my parents shopping there and finding out that he wasn't at work.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ Jul 9 2007, 11:26 AM) [snapback]475550[/snapback]</div>

I, too, agree. But why? It seems to me that we vilify alcohol (like we do smoking and sex and violence) but we also glorify it in entertainment...it's 'cool' to be someone who breaks the law (like the Sopranos, for example)...it seems pretty clear to me that we're sending mixed messages to our children.

Perhaps it does make more sense to introduce children to alcohol when they're younger...not to turn them into drunks, but to take away the 'forbidden' aspect of it that ---clearly--- is (if you'll pardon the expression) intoxicating to young people.

Again, the story of the Prius becoming cool in the eyes of a number of its detractors...'cause it performed well in an illegal activity...
:-(

Anything we make 'prohibited' will naturally become more enticing...that's the culture we've created. It's a powerful dynamic that, I believe, speaks to a part of us that in some ways seems to be more powerful than logic.

 

double post

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 9 2007, 01:26 PM) [snapback]475586[/snapback]</div>

Pinto's right on the money! B)

In todays world SEX SELLs.... If we are not blaming cigarettes, then its alchohol, then its sex or violent video games.. :huh:

I remember growing up in the 70s, we could wander the block long street. We had to be home by dinner time. We didnt think about sex nor did we care. We would play frizbee, stick ball, rock em sock em robots, slip n slide, hide & seek, ect. on saturday nights we would gather in the living room and watch the laurence welk show, hee haw & hawi 5 -0. If we where lucky our parents might even let us watch the twilight zone...

Now the tv shows revolve around violence & sex or even soft porn. :blink:

I was going some where with this but lost my train of thought..