What are your views about clean burning diesel?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(silentak1 @ Oct 11 2006, 02:41 AM) [snapback]331065[/snapback]</div>

The upcoming clean diesel (ULSD) enables automakers to include cleaning hardware without the worry that they will lose effectiveness quickly due to sulfur build-up. It also reduces emissions of vehicles already on the road. Initially, all it will provide is a means for automakers to now be able to sell new diesel vehicles in CARB states, since they will finally be able to meet minimum criteria. However, it does not mean the emissions are in any way competition with hybrids.

That's what the SULEV and PZEV ratings are for. They clearly indicate whether or not the vehicle is truly an improvement. Otherwise, the new diesel vehicles are just another choice among the standard traditional selection we already have. (And yes, some diesel supporters absolutely hate when I point that out.)

In short, it's the first step... a very good one, but not enough alone to compete with.

 

Actually the combination of very high mpg and very low emissions means that they ARE competition for hybrids. THey also produce more torque than comperable gas engines. Clean diesel is a huge part of the automobile's future.

 

is it comparable if "very low" means ONLY 50% more...or is it 80% more? even 20% more over millions of vehicles would be an issue

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Oct 11 2006, 09:10 AM) [snapback]331076[/snapback]</div>

From what I've seen, it looks like they are directly comperable to hybrids in emissions.

Now if they built a clean diesel hybrid...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Oct 11 2006, 08:31 AM) [snapback]331086[/snapback]</div>

What have you seen?

I certainly haven't come across any article or press release that states a diesel with a rating of SULEV or PZEV will actually be available. Yes, there are prototypes delivering that level of clean, but nothing planned for production anytime soon.

The biggest problem is cost. That extra cleansing hardware adds to the final price, which basically cancels out any monetary benefit... especially when you consider that it has a minor negative effect on efficiency as well. Also, diesels aren't really competive in stop & slow (daily commute) type traffic anyway... quite different from the "full" hybrids.

 

well this is probably old news but last year when i first saw something on it, they were supposed to be even cleaner than the tough european standards, but comparable to a Prius???.... not even close.

havent bothered to read anything on them lately so their specs may have changed.

as far as ratings go, there are other non hybrid cars that achieve SULEV status but if they get 30% less gas mileage they simply are not comparable to the Prius imm. same goes for a diesel that gets both less mileage and is slightly dirtier. it all counts.

i guess it boils down to settling for better or settling for the best. imm, the best is the only option, especially considering that it can be had without paying the premium price that so many other products demand

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Oct 11 2006, 09:37 AM) [snapback]331090[/snapback]</div>

I can't remember right off hand. I know I read some of it in a couple of car magazines. Don't remember which ones or what issue though (I subscribe to pretty much all of them, so it gets tough to keep articles straight). I'll try and see if I can find where I read it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Oct 11 2006, 09:37 AM) [snapback]331090[/snapback]</div>

You know, this is the exact same argument against hybrids as well...

 

Why either diesels or hybrids? Is there some reason I don't know of that a diesel engine wouldn't work just as well, if not better, than a gasoline engine in a hybrid vehicle?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tumbleweed @ Oct 11 2006, 11:34 AM) [snapback]331153[/snapback]</div>

A diesel hybrid would work very well.

Tom

 

Are you talking about engines like the new Honda diesel? I checked it out - the new Civic diesel has similar (maybe better on highway) fuel economy, maybe a third more CO2 than the Prius. It also has half the NOx emissions of the next best diesel, but TEN TIMES the NOx of the Prius. Alongside more CO2..

You can get cars with better FE than the Prius over here (just - and those cars would be tiny tiny city cars even by our standards) but nothing touches it for emissions.

So what's more important, the environment or your wallet?

By the way, the Civic diesel looks like it'll be brilliant fun to drive with almost sportscar performance...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tumbleweed @ Oct 11 2006, 08:34 AM) [snapback]331153[/snapback]</div>

take a look at this
as you can see, the initial results, minus 6 years of battery and combustion improvements makes a Prius look like a gas guzzler. so YES!! a diesel would work much better. but alas!! the oil and U.S. automobile industry won out in its battle to make us drive crap. they just didnt plan for a mass exodus to a REAL car company like Toyota.


sales figures YTD just out. Toyota more than 25% increase in sales. one of the biggest single year improvements ever and by far the most by a top seller. sure, its easy for #10 to improve that much, but how many times has #2 done that??


just to add to the post. a diesel electric option would be nice AND expensive

 

When you add something like this to the Hybrid/Diesel mix, things get interesting:

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/23/2008-vw...tted-in-the-us/


It's the 2008 VW Jetta TDI. Not only is it 50 state clean, it doesn't require any Urea injection. Not only is it clean, it develops 40 more hp than the old version, and gobs more torque (240 ft-lbs). So it has 40% more HP than the old TDI (which means it should be gobs faster), it's also supposed to be more efficient (VW has quoted, off the cuff, 40/60, as their real world experience). And, the kicker, the TDI gets great mileage and is substantially heavier than the Prius. But the added weight shows up in build quality (Jetta doesn't creak) and safety ratings (Jetta is better).

To be honest, with that mileage, safety, and build quality, it's very compelling against my Prius.

 

"Clean fossil fuel" is an oxymoron.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Oct 11 2006, 02:20 PM) [snapback]331256[/snapback]</div>

Not necessarily. Even electric vehicles pollute, and as it's "behind the scenes" people forget about it. The power has to be made somewhere, and until solar and/or wind become prevalent, that is most likely coal.

There is currently no "perfect" vehicle.

 

I guess the build quality of a Hummer is much better than a Lexus?
After seeing three different friends go though hell with their Jettas' quality problems I'll stay away from Volkswagons until they can demonstrate some long term reliability again.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 11 2006, 11:11 AM) [snapback]331250[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(silentak1 @ Oct 11 2006, 12:20 PM) [snapback]331215[/snapback]</div>

I saw a chart recently, but went back to my usual sites and couldn't find it. Basically with the new low-sulfur diesel that is being rolled out this month (delayed a bit after it was first signed into law by Clinton), soot is down 30%, hydrocarbons down something like 80% and CO2 down 90% from the old diesel engines. That wasn't compared against gas engines however. The big thing is that with low-sulfur fuel, pollution control devices can be added that won't be destroyed by the pollution itself, and so diesel cars can meet 50-state emissions.