What if the current state of Israel had never been created

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 26 2006, 12:59 PM) [snapback]292625[/snapback]</div>

Your pretext is incorrect, but I will bite.

If there was no State of Israel there still would be wahabism and cause for fear for all freedom loving people. What we are witnessing is the umpteenth attempt at the creation of a caliphate. I view it as a similar pattern to that witnessed in the 1930's with the spread of nazism/fascism - only.

Heck - as you know the entire middle east was created in the early 1900's - all artificial - the same way Israel was REcreated we witnessed the creation of Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iran. So it was not only Israel that was "created".

I would posit a different question. What if the situation was different 180 degrees and you had 500,000,000 million Jewish people surrounding 5,000,000 Arabs? You think that that small island of Arabs would be under relentless attack?? You think that little island would be giving back land for just the HOPE of peace? You think if that little island of Arabs had several hundred nukes they would not have used them over the past 40+ years? What say you now that I answered your question?

 

The Irani president is ignorant. Jews were never "placed" in the middle east by anybody. They were allowed to immigrate to the region by the british, and seek self-determination after supporting the UK in WW I. The specific UK paper is the "Balfour" declaration

Although the immigration accelerated under UK control of Palestine, it started in the 19th century, and was already a major if not dominant local political force under the Ottoman empire prior to WW I.

In the early 1950's up till the large russian immigrations in the 1990's and beyond, the majority of Jews in Israel were from the Islamic middle eastern countries, and so by the hairbrained reasoning in the first post, belong in Israel, since they have remained in the region. Furthermore, that large scale immigration of arab land jews resulted from persecution in their local countries, that was heightened by the creation of Israel, but had been going on for a long time prior. The Irani president might remember: the same scenario played out in Iran of Jews fleeing persecution when Iran went from a secular to an Islamist country in the 1980's. So to a large degree, Israel's ascendancy to a major thorn in arab pride was their own intolerance and persecution.

Before opinions, how about having a clue, first ?

 

If Israel did not exist the situation in the Middle East.....would be no different. The different tribes would still be infighting. They would just be targeting someone else with their hate. The different Muslim sects seem to hate each other almost as much as the Jews. Remove the Jews as a unifying target and they'd just turn on themselves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jul 26 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]292641[/snapback]</div>

You are correct in that there was a large Jewish population in Judea and Samara for centuries and was only accelerated by geopolitical forces the least of which was anti-Semitism in europe and the middle east.

Rumor also had it that Jewish people populated that region prior to all other peoples currently inhabiting the planet Earth. I cannot recall any references to Palestinians in the Bible or any other historical text before same are said for Jews in that region - or prior to the emergence of the Philistine empire. I wonder in Palistinian history books how far back they reference themselves.

So, maybe the question should be reversed - what if arab nations were never created - what would the world be like??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 26 2006, 01:32 PM) [snapback]292645[/snapback]</div>

The infighting would happen once they took care of all the infidels - please reference the Muslim invasion of europe and surrounding territories in an attempt to create a caliphate - an ongoing battle for them for nearly a millenium (while Israel did not exist) --- we are now just witnessing its revitalization after resting for several hundred years. So I will respectfully disagree with you about no Israel - they still would be targeting "us" and not themselves - that would be their last battle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 26 2006, 01:32 PM) [snapback]292645[/snapback]</div>

Theier infighting would happen once they took care of all the infidels - please reference the Muslim invasion of europe and surrounding territories in an attempt to create a caliphate - an ongoing battle for them for nearly a millenium (while Israel did not exist) --- we are now just witnessing its revitalization after resting for several hundred years. So I will respectfully disagree with you about no Israel - they still would be targeting "us" and not themselves - that would be their last battle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 26 2006, 01:44 PM) [snapback]292654[/snapback]</div>

I am missing something here - please explain this further.

"Where could the Jews move to"?? Please explain

"Where would the Jews move to"?? Please explain

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 26 2006, 10:44 AM) [snapback]292654[/snapback]</div>

How about to the victors go the spoils? After WW2 in this case, GERMANY was the spoils. Re-writing history is pointless, but I have often wondered 'what would have happened' if the Jews got Gemany.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 26 2006, 02:27 PM) [snapback]292674[/snapback]</div>

Palestinians, Jews, etc all come from the same genetic family... actually we all do. That being said, I have no clue the details or in what time period Jews became Jews and Palestinians became Palestinians. MS in another thread mentioned the basics of the story.

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It's a tricky question.

As far as the Muslim infighting goes... these are the fundamentalist groups (IE they follow their religion completely and very conservatively) that do the fighting and cause the attrocities... not the moderates... who have a selective bias when it comes to religion... and I don't mean just Islam.


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And dberman... Arabs aren't only Muslim... they are Muslim and Christian.

 

The mistake is US government support of Israel

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brasche @ Jul 26 2006, 12:13 PM) [snapback]292730[/snapback]</div>

The mistake is INSUFFICIENT US Government support of Israel!

PS Tweak a Muslim, tell him Mohammed was Jewsish just like Jesus! (its true read the Quran, Mohammed is asked why he changed directions for his prayers, from the east as in Judiasm to towards Mecca in the west)

 

Care to explain what happened between between the death of Jesus and the time the Gospels (I believe that's around AD 70)? Tweak any religionist... they'll make up any excuse to justify their nutcase belief systems.

You know that virgin births preceded Jesus in other past religions? For all the comments lobbed at the idea of virgins in "Paradise," do any Christians ever care to try and explain how a virgin birth happens? (Here's a clue... that Y chromosome in Jesus came from somewhere... and it wasn't from a mythical being).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Jul 26 2006, 04:57 PM) [snapback]292756[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brasche @ Jul 26 2006, 04:13 PM) [snapback]292730[/snapback]</div>

I assume then you support the US Government supporting Iran or Syria? And of course it should continue supporting Egypt and Turkey and Saudi Arabia?

The mistake Israel keeps making is listening to the US and giving the US technology and other forms of aid and information. Maybe the US should would be better off depending on Arab allies as you imply? At least then it would be a fair fight in the Middle East.

With over several hundred nuclear weapons and multiple delivery systems Israel needs not listen to anyone. I find it comforting knowing that if we are placed in a difficult situation, we have an answer available to us. And I know that although we have up to this date hesitated to use them, we would as the US did.

And correct me if I am wrong, Israel is the only country protected by an anti-missile shield. Maybe Israel should stop transferring that technology and advanced ground based anti-missile laser technology to the US. No need to worry about North Korea (another Clinton success story) firing off a missile toward California (kind of hope he aims for Berkeley or San Fran) - and when they develop a longer range missile to hit the rest of the US - no big deal. They only have a few nukes to date and can only make less than a dozen at this point. Or maybe you would like to ally with them too?

 

Don't complain to PCers about North Korea... you should be telling the Bush Administration what to do on them... they're the ones in charge right now... not Clinton. We had this debate before. The North Korean goverment decided to break the treaty. It is NOT Clinton's failure. Like I said... the cards are in the hands of the Bush Administration and it is up to them to do something (hopefully better for the future of the world) about the North Korea situation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 26 2006, 05:24 PM) [snapback]292768[/snapback]</div>

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The debate's been done on Iran too... guess who, rather ironically, made the conditions ripe for radical Shiites to take power in Iran?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile

 

This is not what I said. I said the jewish repopulation of Palestine began in earnest during the Ottoman empire. It was in fact driven by Jewish persecution in the countries of origin -- just way before Balfour (as a pulling force) or Hitler (as a pushing force).

In case you are interested: there was no long-term Jewish presence in Shomron (Samaria) through the centuries. They were concentrated in Tiverya (Tiberias), Jerusalem, and Zfat (Safed). If you wish to consider Jerusalem the capital of Yehuda (Judea), then your sentence is right in that part.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jul 26 2006, 04:06 PM) [snapback]292826[/snapback]</div>

There was also a stable Jewish presence in Hevron (Hebron) until the 1929 massacre of the Jewish population there by Arabs.

 

Serious question, as my knowledge is lacking here:

Were any alternatives considered for the Jewish "homeland", leading up to 1947?

 

If you are really interested in the Israeli/Muslim conflict & history, there are two books which I highly recommend for reading.

One is the bible. Specifically, the book of Genesis, chapter 17, verse 18 to 21. It says:"And Abraham said to God, 'Yes, do bless Ishmael!' "No," God replied, "that isn't what I said. Sarah shall bear you a son; and you are to name him Isaac ('Laughter'), and I will sign my covenant with him forever, and with his descendents. As for Ishmael, all right, I will bless him also, just as you have asked me to. I will cause him to multiply and become a great nation. Twelve princes shall be among his posterity. But my contract is with Isaac, who will be born to you and Sarah next year about this time." From the BOOK, published by Tyndale.

The other tells about the historical life & time of Mohammed and how he came into power & from the power arose the Muslim beliefs. It is "The Everlasting Hatred The Roots of Jihad" written by Hal Lindsey, published by Oracle House Publishing.

This war was started from the very beginning when Abraham & Sarah decided to fulfill God's prophecy concerning a son that was to be born to them for posterity. It was quite common back in Abraham's time to have a barren wife give permission for her husband to have relations with her woman servant in order to raise up a man-child so that the family name/line would continue.

So Sarah gave her handmaiden, Hagar to Abraham and she did conceive a male child named Ishmael.

But as you can see from the scripture taken from THE BOOK, that this was NOT what God had in mind when He made such a promise to both Abraham and Sarah.

It wasn't until 13 years later that Sarah became pregnant by her husband, Abraham, and bore Issac.

It is also known, that the first born child, especially the male, would receive what is known as the patriarchial blessing. This is the blessing that comes from the father to the first born male when the father is near his death bed. The blessing conveys both material and spiritual authority when it is bestowed. The blessing includes rights of headship over all tribal families, land, and authority to rule secularly and spiritually.

Even though Ishmael was born first, he was not the child by whom God had chosen to bestow the "patriarchial blessing" upon. It was Issac, and Issac only, to whom God had reserve this blessing.

And so, there has been war ever since between the Muslim and the Israelite/Jew.

See Genesis, chapter 25, verse 18. "And he, (Ishmael), will live in hostility toward ALL his brothers."

For the Muslim there is no personal relationship to their God. It is anchored in the Koran, which means law. The word Muslim means submission. They go strictly by the Koran. There is no love nor mercy from their god. Hence, they believe that they will enter into paradise by their "works" whether it be "works" of love or "works" of destruction.

For the Christian there is a personal relationship to their God. It is anchored in the life saving atonement by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

The bible says, if the Son, (Jesus), has set you free, you are free indeed. That is what it means to be a Christian: forgiven by a loving and merciful God. It doesn't mean that we haven't sinned but it does mean that God has paid the penalty for all of our sins from beginning of our lives to the end of our lives when we accept that payment for those sins.

If God says that we can be forgiven through His Son's death on the cross, who is going to tell Him that He can not do that?

Not me. I, for one am glad that God loved me enough to do that not just for me, but for anyone who wants to receive that forgiveness.

Enough already. But the point is, that God is going to bless the world through Abraham's son Issac. Those that bless the seed of Issac will be blessed. Those that cursed the seed of Issac will be cursed.

So pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Because, if Jerusalem doesn't have peace, none of us will.

Also, God will not share His glory with anyone when it comes to saving Israel, not even the U. S. of A.