What will it take to ignite the next American Revolution?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 03:03 PM) [snapback]341457[/snapback]</div>

The US is as far from a "popular uprising" as China was in 1989. If by popular uprising, you mean violence or civil war, that is about the last thing I would wish. On the other hand, more and more people in the US and outside the country are seeing through the lies of this administration and the elite oligarchy it serves. The key issue is the official version of 9/11 which is unravelling more every day. I am reading a book by Webster Griffin Tarpley - 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA which I strongly recommend as a starting point in understanding the events of 9/11 and how they were orchestrated by the "invisible" government of the oligarchy. Once you see the truth of 9/11 you see through all the lies of this government and also of the democratic party which also accepts the myth that Bin Laden was behind 9/11. Pull that string, and the whole edifice of lies falls apart.

If it were to occur, a popular uprising would simply hasten the descent into full-blown fascism, which would suit the corporate oligarchy perfectly.

"Popular uprising" has a quaint revolutionary ring to it - (where is my Che Guevera poster?), but I really wish people would just read a bit and ecucate themselves. The books, the videos, the websites are all there.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 03:03 PM) [snapback]341457[/snapback]</div>

President Hillary Clinton :lol:

 

The problem, i think, is simply that people don't see problems that are worth fighting (and dieing) for.

In the past, there's been political oppression, slavery, taxation without representation, etc. for people to rally around. Here in the US, though, things are a bit different. There's no mass oppression (even though some groups may feel oppressed by other groups in certain areas). there's no slavery to fight for, or other human rights issues on this scale. And there is representation for everyone - if something isn't going as you would like in the government, you just have to wait a few years for the other party to be voted into power.

All that being said, any sort of revolution now would be horrible. much more so than in the past. Previously, there was a huge cost and infrastructure that needed to be in place in order to truly execute this sort of thing - weapons, explosives, etc. now, however, those things aren't all that difficult to obtain, especially through illicit means. Heck, you can even get diagrams and such for large explosives online...

And when it gets right down to it, i don't think a large enough group of people would be willing to go against the government knowing the cost in life that would occur. at least, not in a military fashion.

Instead, i think we would see a revolution happen with the control of information. It's surprisingly easy to influence public opinion with some well placed adds and information, and the right sort of charismatic person backing it up. If you influence public opinion enough, you'll see laws passed and people elected who will do what you've been preaching.

The next American revolution won't occur in the streets or on any battlefield. it will occur on the internet, though television, and be so subtle that many won't be aware of its influence. Some of it may happen through straight campaigning, while others will be more subtle, such as triggering an economic recession in certain areas, aimed specifically at changing public opinion of certain politicians or laws.

Simply put, the change would happen by influencing the public - because, like lemmings, we tend to follow the popular opinion

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 03:23 PM) [snapback]341473[/snapback]</div>

I dislike the idea of uprising and, indeed any violence. Change will have to come about as an evolutionary process. The people in Scandivanian countries are well-educated and have created relatively enlightened forms of government - governments that actually work for the people rather than the oligarchy. As a result, their tax dollars go to health and education instead of military and security orgaizations. Their rate of unionization is about 80% of workers instead of the 20% here. They have campaign finance laws to ensure that corporations don't bribe their way into power. They have 12 month paid maternity leave, and every worker gets a full month vacation. They have close to the highest standards of living in the world. The governments work for the people.

I would like to see that here and eventually in the whole world. I don't think a revolution will do that - it will take a great increase in education and awareness - the kind of work the 9/11 truth movement is doing every day.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 03:24 PM) [snapback]341475[/snapback]</div>

STOP THE PRESSES
FLASH-FREEZE
COMMON GROUND?
MAYBE WE CAN BE FRIENDS?

 

I think the vast majority of Americans have enough faith in our democratic process that there's very little chance of a 'popular uprising'. Many people are unhappy about the current federal government leadership, and we'll probably have a very heavy turnout in the elections next week. Where opposition candidates don't win, people will say "Let's start working on the 2008 elections" (or maybe 'ho, hum') rather than taking to the streets.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jeannie @ Oct 31 2006, 03:51 PM) [snapback]341504[/snapback]</div>

Agree with you and the marketplace of ideas - elections. Perhaps those that are calling for or looking forward to a popular uprising or American Revolution occupy a minority of opinion?? Perhaps that is why one will not come to pass?

 

"Well, Sweden is not the utopia you may think it is...The effective income tax rate is 90% and the cost of living is very high (My brothers flat in Stockholm was around $360,000 for 500sqft). Everything costs more, my bother has a field day when he comes back to the states "everything is so cheap!" Labor costs are so high in Sweden that companies don't hire people if they can help it, they will out source to Ireland or Eastern Europe or just close shop. This has happened to my brother twice. Also Sweden is having an imigrant problem in that they are bringing their violence with them and the crime rate is rising so the gov't is increasing policing and raising taxes to cover this added cost. The gov't works very hard finding new ways to tax the populace.
The other thing to remember is that Sweden only has 9 million people in it (less than NY city) so it would be very hard to replicate this on a larger scale."

True, the taxes are high, but in return for their high taxes the Swedes get free medical care and nearly free education. Half of American bankrupcies are caused by medical bills and even those with health insurance can face huge bills that are "not covered" by insurance. It is barbaric to have to worry about whether you can afford medical services for you and your children. Swedes, like Canadians, do not face $40,000 bills for a year of college education. (In Canada, an excellent university costs about $5,000 per year) Not only that, but taxes are high here. My neighbor pays $16,000 in property taxes alone.

Labor costs are high? That means the workers are well paid, right? The fact is that Swedes have a very high standard of living and fewer worries than Americans if they get sick or unemployed.

Why would it be hard to replicate Sweden on a larger scale? Canada has 35,000,000 people and does replicate Sweden on a larger scale.

To return to the post's topic, the scandinavian countries are not completely under the thumb of the oligarchies which control most of the world. In this country, the corporate agenda determines everything to the detriment of working people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]341544[/snapback]</div>

That is exactly where Canada had an advantage - it has a viable third party called the NDP (New Democratic Party). This is a pro-worker, pro-union social democratic party like the ones that have been in power in Sweden. The NDP was largely responsible for bringing in universal health insurance in Canada. It did not have power, but was a third party pressure group. The Liberal party responded to public pressure and brought in health insurance in the 1960's. Of course the Canadian medical establishment opposed it, but now even conservative Canadians would never go back to the bad old days before universal health insurance. In general, the govenment in Canada is stronger than corporations, not the lapdog of corporations as in this country. Businesses can make money, but not at the expense of the public good.


"the corporate world, companies have all but abandoned any loyalty to the worker (and vice versa)..and yet, when there's an election, we're usually called upon to do their bidding."

This is due to the weakness of trade unions in the US. Workers have become virtually powerless. As I said, the union movement is stronger in Canada, and much stronger in scandinavia. Bush, by the way, was well known in his student days at business school to be very anti-union.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Oct 31 2006, 05:21 PM) [snapback]341540[/snapback]</div>

Ponder for a moment, if you will, the contradiction in that statement. There ain't no free lunch!

 

People only stage a revolution when they have nothing to lose. In Czarist Russia, in WW II China, in Somoza's Nicaragua, in Batista's Cuba, the great mass of people had absolutely nothing, and were starving. They had nothing to lose because even their lives had no value to them with hunger gnawing at their ribs day and night, 24/7.

The majority of Americans are living from paycheck to paycheck, but they have a great deal to lose by a revolution. They may be seeing through the criminal machinations of Bush, they may even decide, as Jared, that 9/11 is a hoax. But if they do, their reaction will not be to rise up in revolt. It will be to vote for the other party.

There have indeed been uprisings. In Watts and in Detroit, there were mass uprisings (characterized by the media and government as "riots," because every revolt is a "riot" from the point of view of those in power) but they did not spread and were easily put down by the police and National Guard. And the reason they did not spread is because outside those enclaves of poverty, the great majority of Americans had too much to lose, and even within those neighborhoods, many individuals felt they had more to lose than to gain by a revolution.

So, to answer the original question, America is nowhere near revolution. But it might possibly vote the Republicans out of power -- and then vote them back in after the democrats have a few years to demonstrate that they are no better.

I think this is the only way it could ever happen, though I do not believe America is anywhere near it. The public, en masse, and without regard for the sufferings that the inevitable repression will inflict, would have to cease to obey or recognize the government. Refuse to pay its taxes, fight its wars, obey its laws except where the public good is clearly served, as in traffic law. People would have to refuse to convict accused people in court in anything but cases of violent crime, and even then only when the evidence is clear and overwealming. They'd have to refuse to vote. They'd have to find constructive nonviolent ways to resist the government in every aspect of its affairs.

At the same time they'd have to construct cooperative and non-coercive institutions for organizing and coordinating their private and public affairs. They'd have to embrace each other as sisters and brothers and invent cooperative means of resolving disputes. But in our present climate of fear (fomented by the government and the media) we are light-years away from this.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 31 2006, 09:51 PM) [snapback]341636[/snapback]</div>

Daniel, This is one position you hold that I totally agree with.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2006, 03:58 PM) [snapback]341516[/snapback]</div>

Hoping you had a nice evening last night and will enjoy your day today