When will there be a hybrid car from the Big Three?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ May 30 2006, 05:14 PM) [snapback]262988[/snapback]</div>

A Hybrid Malibu sedan (using the Vue powertrain) will enter production this fall.

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/malibu.html

Well, color me unimpressed. 10% of 30 MPG (combined 24/35 MPG) is 3 MPG increase. Even a 15% increase gets you just about 35 MPG combined...in those hard-to-replicate lab conditions, of course. How is that competing with the Prius, or even the Camry at 40 MPG combined? Any mention of lower emissions (other than C02 would be less due to the better MPG)? Please tell me a Pb-acid battery is not in the picture, too.

Oh, but there is a below 6 MPH "EV-hydraulic" mode. Not sure about that one. I'm still awaiting details.

Sure, anything is better than nothing, and it will be a cheaper system to implement, but long-term, is this what GM has going on? This type of system will certainly NOT get me out of my Prius.

I don't know, for vehicles that are literaly just months away (supposed 2007 model year...so intro them in Oct. '06 or so?), why no info/news/and the like. Is it because it is just not tripping alot of hybrid triggers?

The 2-mode system has my interest...too bad it will be for larger vehicles, of which I have no interest. Yes, I know, I know, others do have a large-vehicle "need", I'm only saying that needs to change, too...

Cheers,

Curt

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]262999[/snapback]</div>

How is that even remotely competitive with a "full" hybrid car like Prius or Camry-Hybrid ?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 30 2006, 05:57 PM) [snapback]263015[/snapback]</div>

Well, given a 20% increase in MPG, which is what the vue gets (numbers haven't been released yet, but that's what GM is targetting) it seems to get 40MPG highway. Higher actually than the Camry.

Not to mention that like the Accord and Camry, it has a full electric A/C setup and the like. Which is how it should be. All the 'features' are level, consumers will judge by the MPG and the price.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 06:27 PM) [snapback]263050[/snapback]</div>

That devotion to "assist" hybrids never ceases to amaze. No matter how many sources point out an efficiency figure less than 20%, you continue to use that number anyway. Notice the link above?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 06:27 PM) [snapback]263050[/snapback]</div>

How will that be achieved? And that compare to the non-hybrid Camry doesn't have any relevance. Of course, if you meant the hybrid version, no source was provided to support such a wild claim.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 06:27 PM) [snapback]263050[/snapback]</div>

Accord doesn't have full electric A/C. It's just partial. The reason should be obvious too, since "assist" hybrids only have a passive electrical system.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 30 2006, 08:19 PM) [snapback]263073[/snapback]</div>

John,

I'm using my 20%, because (a) that's what the Saturn gets (from saturn's own website and EPA estimates and (B) that's the same powertrain.

I know that you're not a technical guy, and I understand not everyone is. But try to understand, I'm not devoted to "assist", I drive a Prius. I'm devoted to technology, and specifically obtaining the best results from any given technology. I don't care if they strap rubber bands under the hood, if the results are good, I'm all for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 07:24 PM) [snapback]263077[/snapback]</div>

That's the rumor you've been spreading, despite evidence to the contrary. And strangely, how come you're being so vague? You imply that you have a technical background, yet don't provide detail to support it.

Stick to the facts. Quit this personal nonsense. How about starting with an explanation of how you believe Malibu-Hybrid will achieve an overall efficiency average better than Camry-Hybrid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 30 2006, 08:32 PM) [snapback]263085[/snapback]</div>

John, I just did. I projected the Vue numbers onto the current 4 cylinder Malibu. A reasonable thing to do given they're using the same drivetrain.

And hell, John, look at my webpage. I have opensource J2ME projects out there. I've participated in opensource Java projects. I write at length about Java/J2ME/C/Perl. I've never seen any evidence of your technical skills. And I don't really care either way. I've drawn my judgments on what you've said in the past.

 

G.M. said the vehicle will be 10 percent more fuel-efficient than its purely gas-powered counterpart. That version is rated by the Environmental Protection Agency at 35 miles per gallon on the highway and 24 in the city.

So, we are least two years away on a G.M. sedan hybrid. I wonder what the next generation hybrids from Toyota and Honda will look like at that time?
(from hybridcars.com, refering to the 2007 malibu hybrid)

10%, wow wat a huge step, and it says most of that is from idle shut off during city driving, so this is barely even a hybrid, and under 6mph and electric hydraulic system takes over, w/e that is its for only under 6 mph, so every other time is gas engine on, wow. 10% increase so thats 26 city and about 38 hwy mpg, so combined about 31, if your lucky, compared to the camry which get combined 40 mpg which is already out, and it will take gm 2 more years to roll this malibu out, seems like something as uncomplicated and not much of an improvment over gas engine could have come out 2 years ago

gm says its focusin on hydrogen fuel celled vehicles but everyone knows those are years or decades away because of fueling infrastructures not even existing now, i say focus on wat can be done to help with oil dependence now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 07:40 PM) [snapback]263090[/snapback]</div>

So much for not being vague. Geez!

We are discussing hardware engineering. That is topic at hand. So neither of our computer programming skills have a place in here. There are quite a few diagrams of electric motor and gas engine interactions available, all of which show how the "full" hybrids have a distinct performance edge over "assist" hybrids.

Where is the detail to support your claims?

This particular document is the one I refer to when nonsense about the competition actually trying to be competitive comes up... Full Hybrid Operation


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(deman1134 @ May 30 2006, 08:08 PM) [snapback]263106[/snapback]</div>

I remember seeing FFV (Flexible Fuel Vehicles) on the road a whole decade ago. And all these years later, ethanol is still only available in isolated areas... despite the fact that almost all the vehicles on the road nowadays are capable of using a 10% blend.

Infrastructure changes are painfully slow, and definitely not cheap or without resistance. For them to expect hydrogen to magically become available so quickly and so plentiful that people will flock to purchase fuel-cell vehicles with no real-world joe-average data available yet is absolute madness. It will take many, many, many years after the initial consumer introduction before widescale acceptance.

Just imagine what hybrids like Prius will be like given in the meantime.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 30 2006, 10:15 PM) [snapback]263155[/snapback]</div>

John..

Your document is amateurish at best, and is fully lacking in detail. I've provided information on my technical background, you haven't provided any on yours. This discussion, until you can show me how the 20% claim wouldn't carry over from Vue -> Malibu despite their using the same drivetrain, is over. You've proven your lack of objectivity.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 09:34 PM) [snapback]263175[/snapback]</div>

There is a significant amount of detail there. Look at all the various energy flows in the many diagrams provided, each carefully described using plain-english terminology to ensure clarity. Numbers are not necessary to teach concepts.

Objectivity means sticking to facts. And there is a clear fact is that "full" hybrids are significantly more flexible is design and have been proving that with the delivery of greater power and overall efficiency, as well as the ability to support aftermarket electric upgrades.

 

Ford and GM have both shown some amazing hybrids at recent motor-shows, but so far they are only concepts. The 70 mpg, 0-60 in 7.9 s Opel Astra in particular looks production ready, but neither company has managed to get them into production yet (perhaps cash-flow for development is the underlying reason for lack of production hybrids from these ailing companies?).

BTW is the Ford Escape considered a full hybrid?

 

Yes, it's similar to the Prius set-up: larger 4 cylinder (2.5 L?), 2 larger electric motors, power split device, bigger NiMH battery (330 V?). Has a low-speed all-EV mode, no engine spinning...not sure on the speed threshold to spinning engine.

Ford is using a mechanical shaft to run the rear wheels in the 4WD version, unlike Highlander Hybrid which uses a 3rd electric motor. Ford must have a conventional transfer case of some kind to drive the rears.

And just when will the Ford sedan (Fusion?) have the hybrid powertrain? Seems if they're serious it'd be touted as a Prius competitor. Just too quiet from the domestic hybrid camps. I think their system is the way to go...since it's so similar to the Prius!

Cheers,

Curt

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ May 30 2006, 05:14 PM) [snapback]262988[/snapback]</div>

And still nothing from Volkswagon, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Peugeot, Porsche, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Subaru, Fiat, Isuzu, Kia, Saab, Suzuki, and Volvo. Did I miss any?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ May 31 2006, 09:16 AM) [snapback]263338[/snapback]</div>

But they have almost all shown evidence of developing hybrids.

Here's a little rundown of what's meant to be coming soon (if sadly not yet) from the other manufacturers:

VW/Audi have some good hybrid-diesel concepts that look fairly production ready. Remember they had the plug-in diesel-electric hybrid DUO out 10 years ago. They have also mated their hybrid system to the new TSi gasoline engines. Here is a review of current VW hybrid progress.

Mercedes has shown the diesel Bluetec hybrid and also Sprinter van, meant to be coming 2008/9.

Renault have been selling plug-in hybrid Kangoos in Europe for years. No word on a more mainstream hybrid yet.

Porsche has said its next SUV Cayenne will be a hybrid in 2008/9.

Peugeot and Citroen have both displayed diesel hybrid hatchbacks that get great mileage (70 mpg US) and are meant to be coming as soon as they get the costs down further.

Nissan has the Altima hybrid on sale this year in the US based on licensed HSD.

Mitsubishi are way ahead in series hybrid development, claiming they'll have them in the showrooms by 2009 (and would leapfrog Toyota comfortably with the technological edge if they manage it).

Hyundai have the Accent hybrid, on sale this year in their home market.

Subaru have scrapped their own hybrid plans, deciding instead to license HSD from Toyota, starting 2008.

Saab has shown the frankly brilliant lithium-ion plug-in hybrid 100% bio-ethanol compatible 9-3 hybrid.

So it's not all doom and gloom!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ May 31 2006, 09:46 AM) [snapback]263348[/snapback]</div>

Nissan will only be selling the Altima hybrid in CARB states, which is, uh, amazing? What happens if you drive your Altima Hybrid from NJ to Ohio and need it serviced (not that HSD, which they licensed, ever breaks down... oh no....). But since they won't be selling them in Ohio, how do they service them? I don't get how they're planning on pulling this off.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ May 31 2006, 01:10 PM) [snapback]263456[/snapback]</div>

HSD is basically THS-II with a few upgrades and a spiffy new name.

And they have stated the only reason they're selling it is to make quotas in CARB states. If more states adopt CARB, more states will get the Altima hybrid.