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Why Engine efficiency (BSFC) worse during warmup?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by briank101, Jul 30, 2013.

  1. briank101

    briank101 Member

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    So I've set my Android Torque app to show real-time BSFC for the last few weeks. I know most other cars use fuel enrichment during warmup, but as the Prius keeps the air/fuel ratio stoichiometric, I'm not sure why I see the BSFC above 330 and then gradually down to the 220 mark as the engine reaches operating temperature. Is it the timing advance and the oil viscosity (I'm using Mobil Sythetic) that explains why I'm getting less power for the fuel consumed? While I understand MPG overall would be lower during the warmup as power is used to charge the battery and transmission efficiency are lower at colder temperatures, with BSFC I'm looking at the engine efficiency in isolation. Volumetric efficiency should be bettter when colder and 70 deg F is not exactly very cold. Is it that the engine is tuned during warmup to have a much lower thermal efficiency (produce a higher % of heat versus mechanical power)?

    Any thoughts appreicated...............



    BTW the real time BSFC is great, I'm learning that the rate of pedal application has more of an effect on BSFC compared to the position in the right side of the HSI one is. The engine itself can maintain a BSFC of 220 any where from the right of the ECO symbol all the way to right tip of the PWR area of the HSI, but the BSFC can vary a bit depending on road speed, an incline or a decline in elevation, and how fast one varies the position on the HSI. I'm still learning with this new found source of feedback.
     
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  2. g4_power

    g4_power Junior Member

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    What can we do about it other than keeping the engine warm? I've been looking at engine heaters, not sure which one is good. Some are $40 and some are $50. I would also need a timer to start the heater about an hour before I go to work since I probably wouldn't want it to run all night. If other family members needed to use the Prius, they would have to remember to unplug the heater before they take off. The more I think about it, the less enthusiastic I get.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Track "long term fuel trim" and engine coolant temperature.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    These are very good questions and I'm waiting for someone more qualified than myself to answer them fully.
    However, I always thought cold engine requires rich mixture and that results in incomplete combustion and low efficiency.
    Then there is increased friction due to oil viscosity, denser air, and fuel/water condensation on cylinder liners.
    Finally, the combustion temp is lower due to excessive cooling, resulting in lower efficiency.

    I googled and found this Prius-specific Canadian study on warmup fuel loses that is a good read (even if doesn't answer all the questions):
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2011/veh_sys_sim/vss050_jehlik_2011_o.pdf
     
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  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My testing with the 1.5L engine and a spoofing circuit revealed the coolant must be 40C and above or the engine will 'stall out.'
    Within seconds, the cylinder wall and piston temperatures are high enough there are no condensation issues.
    What is missing from the charts is the role of transaxle oil warm-up on engine-to-wheel loss. But these were part of my earliest Prius studies:
    2003 Prius - Cold Weather and Transaxle

    Everything they show on pp. 8 is consistent with the transmission warm-up.
    [​IMG]
    My notes: 03 Prius Transaxle Temperatures

    One key requirements in the marathon driving stunt was to increase each commute duration from ~20 minutes to over 60 minutes. This ensured the last half of each commute had a warmed transmission allowing 99.9 MPG over that part. The first 20 minutes would typically provide ~70-75 MPG but 40 minutes later, it was often pegged at 95-99 MPG for the whole trip.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    Yes regarding aluminum alloy pistons, but no regarding steel liners surrounded by cold coolant. I you were right, we would not have cold start cylinder wear or fuel dilution in oil due to cold idling.

    Yes, but the OP talks about ENGINE efficiency.
     
  7. briank101

    briank101 Member

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    Is it just that the power extracted in the power stroke is correlated to cylinder wall temp up to about the 190F? explained perhaps by more consistent burning due to more even distribution of air/fuel mixture at all points within the cylinder from center to edge when its wall temps are higher.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My observations are that below ~60C, the engine control laws use fuel to warm-up the engine. This may have changed in the more recent models and it would be a good thing if they did. Also, oil viscosity changes with temperature so a cooler engine will have more internal, lubrication drag.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. briank101

    briank101 Member

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    It would be interesting to know what % of the waste heat energy produced is from the friction component compared to the direct heat from the burning fuel. Has any study gauged the amount of engine mechanical output lost to friction for various engines?
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I found one abstract from an SAE paper that claims 10% for a small, air-cooled Honda engine. But my subsequent attempts to find any SAE credible papers has not worked.

    I typically use a short-cut, the starter power. With a fast recording OBD scanner, you can get usable metrics for our Prius.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    I also have been watching BSFC on my Android. During warm up the engine is not working under high load, it produces only 50 Nm of torque, that alone gives us a BSFC (from the cart) of around 300 even if the engine would be fully warmed up. Try to go over 50 mph and give gas just a little under the center of HSI (maybe it's even SOC dependent), you will get a similar condition - small torque, low rpm, high instant MPG, but BSFC will read around 300 g/kWh.

    I rarely see 220 mark, the number is usually bouncing between 220-240 when fully warmed up, and around 240-250 when the coolant is not fully warmed up. Changing the engine speed will momentarily drop this figures out of this range as the input data (fuel flow, rpm, torque) is not synchronized. So I don't believe that your observation of how fast one varies the position of hsd, can be read correctly, but it may be true.
     
  12. briank101

    briank101 Member

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    I think I found something interesting with this. When the engine is cooler say around 50 F to 110 F range, one may actually get (according to my realtime Torque app) better (lower)BSFC at higher throttle inputs (3500 rpm) versus the moderate inputs (1300 rpm) normally associated with efficient driving with a fully warmed engine. I suspect what may be happening is that at lighter loads (with less total air/fuel mixture in the intakes and cylinders) the cold engine walls and intake walls have a dominating effect on the mixture, where as with the higher air/fuel amounts at higher throttle openings, the cool wall in the intake and cylinders have less of a dominating effect on the burning fuel. It may require further study.

    Note: I usually take the BSFC reading after the second or two it takes to settle. So what I'm comparing it one long acceleration event at low throttle versus high throttle and then again a long event at low throttle. Indeed if this is the case it's almost a win win faster warm up, faster acceleration, but maybe more engine wear, but I do use synthetic. Also the fluids are colder, but as I said, I would wait until over 50 F before upping the rpm a bit.
     
  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I have read SAE papers and the warm up stage advanced timing was chosen to generate max heat to bring up the exhaust cat converter temp (to 600 deg F).

    When you gave it high throttle (more than the power HV battery could fill), Prius would cancel the warm up timing to provide "emergency" power.

    My guess is, that gives you better BSFC but without Cat at working temp, more pollution would sprew out. That can't be good for the life of the Cat conv.

    My suggestion is, let the car do it's thing. It is good to understand and monitor it through Torque app though.
     
  14. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    There is one problem, even if BSFC is better it's still not as good as a warmed up engine and during high acceleration the fuel flow will be higher, so a small deviation from optimum BSFC may mean same thing if you are babying the throttle. The other problem is that because of traffic you can not accelerate very long, so this pulse will be short and then you are again stuck with normal warming up consumption.

    But all that said I do use this technique if I must accelerate to a higher speed and maintain that speed. I think it's still better than taking it slow and completely drain the battery.
     
  15. briank101

    briank101 Member

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    I would still wait until after the initial 1 minute warm up to do the increased throttle. Actually the first 3/4 mile of my commute is at both ends is through < 20 mph sections, and then suddenly on to 45 mph traffic, so the the car is well out of the stage of using electric only power by then. Actually when going though the <20 mph sections I tend to match power generated with power consumed as show on my Torque app so the net Battery power is close 0 Watts, eliminating I hope some of the round-trip battery losses. I believe the amount generated is just over 2 kW in the first 45 seconds upping to over 4 kW for about another 30 seconds an ideal match for the motive power I require through the parking lot at work. The ICE starts taking over after this and it's at that stage where I talking about using the extra ICE power but making sure engine is at least 50 F. I need the extra power at this stage because when I get on the main road (45 mph traffic) it's uphill for 10 seconds and then at the next slight downhill I put into neutral to prevent the regen from slowing me down, the engine would stay on either way as it's still not warm enough at this stage during 45 F days or less days. This is part of my winter strategy. Of course the HVAC fan is off, ECO mode engaged during this stage too to speed up the warm up and to have ICE go off as early as possible at the next stop. Heat/Fan only switched on when engine is under load and if the coolant temp is say over 150 F.
     
  16. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Sounds good.

    Once you get a hang of BSFC, monitor the MG1 Power. If it is generating electricity, you know that amount is splitting through the series path.

    You want to minimize that since it has to go through conversion loss. It usually happens when you accelerate heavy at low speed or heavy passing on highway. This way, you maximize ICE direct power to the wheels.
     
  17. briank101

    briank101 Member

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    I may need to add the MG1 power gauge. Won't MG1 always be producing power when the ICE is at some high rpm as I thought that MG1 is producing power proportional to ICE rpm to power MG2 as there was a fixed 30%/70% electrical/ICE torque split. Is it that when the MG1 rpm is high along with ICE rpm and the MG2 speed is low, that a step down in voltage from MG1 to power MG2 is required and hence the conversion losses?
     
  18. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    MG1 can spin as high was 10,000 rpm but if it isn't creating any resistance (negative torque), it won't be generating any electricity.

    PSD splits 28% of the torque from ICE to MG1 and 72% to the wheels. That does not change. The change in torque adjusts the power generation or consumption.

    MG1 can consume electricity. Not only when it starts the ICE as a starter but also at higher speed. MG1 actually spins backward in order to achieve "overdrive", resulting in slow ICE rpm at high vehicle speed. That's also when MG1 can become motor and MG2 generator. Their roles are reversed.

    Yes, that's part of it. There are losses in the inverter to match the voltage (both are AC). There are losses in generator and motor as well.

    If the electricity needs to go through the battery, there will be further loss as AC needs to be converted to DC and voltage has to drop to ~202V. Plus there are losses in battery charging and discharging.

    In the order of desirable to less desirable, 1) ICE direct mechanical power to the wheels. 2) Series hybrid path -- eCVT torque multiplication through electric motor. 3) Power flowing through the battery.

    Basically, the entire system needs to be considered other than BFSC of the ICE.
     
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