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Why Russian Military is SO Unprepared

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by bwilson4web, Nov 25, 2023.

  1. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Active Member

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    Uprisings are one thing, the worst attack on the USA was Jan 6, 2021 when the core of government was attacked and breached to change an election and Constitution for one man.
    Robert E. Lee himself advised after the civil war not to have statues or flags from the failed state, as it will cause division of the country. He was an educated literate man. Things have devolved to worse. Pretty sure the statues came a bit later from those forces unable to accept things Robert E. Lee himself accepted. Have to look it up again, it was surprising to see his words given what is happening today.
     
  2. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Many figures in our history showed deep insight into current events in their times and their impact on the future:

    Why Was George Washington Opposed to Political Parties? | American Majority

    "When President George Washington left public office, he cautioned the nation not to divide themselves into political parties.

    In his farewell address, he stated that the spirit of the party, “serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection.”

    Was he able to see into the future and the division his beloved nation would face in the years to come?"
     
  3. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Worse than Bull Run or Gettysburg?
    Worse than The Burning of Washington?

    I guess this is what happens when you pay public school teachers so poorly.
    If you believe that our nation was threatened by some vegan cosplaying a bison then you may want to take some adult learning classes and bring yourself up to speed as to what happens sometimes in US Presidential elections.
    Maybe Google.....''Corrupt Bargain'......... ;) (There were 2-1/2)
    HAD the protesters succeeded in hanging the Veep, killing each US Senator somehow, and reburning the White House then Joseph Robinette Biden would have still been sworn in as the 46th President of the US.......more than likely on the date set forth by US law.
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I do remember the chants about hanging the veep, and maybe some may have spoken of killing every senator (I might have missed that news), and I don't remember any effort to burn the White House; in any case, all three of those would be tactics, not the objective. What we know from the actual event is they didn't end up carrying out any of those specific tactics, and they didn't end up accomplishing the objective.

    In the alternate universe suggested by the quote, they do carry out three specific tactics, but still don't achieve the objective.

    So the structure of that argument seems to be "had they used three tactics chosen for this argument but not attaining the objective, the objective would not have been attained." True enough, but what tautology isn't?
     
    #24 ChapmanF, Dec 6, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2023
  5. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Active Member

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    Worse than all. Worse than Pearl Harbor. That was a foreign enemy. Nothing was like Jan 6. The worst attack on America in history. Our first attempted coup. If Pence had agreed to not count the already certified votes, there was a lot more going to happen. If they killed him, a lot more was going to happen. That was only step one. Now that power is taken away from the man who this was all for. Even now he promotes violence on innocent people.

    What you are saying is the bank robber can break down the doors to the bank, beat and harm people inside, chase people to kill, beat police officers to near death, and damage the interior. But since he didn’t get the money out of the bank, it’s no problem. Nothing happened.

    Surprising Lee was so concerned about the country, yet still held deeply biased views towards people. I never heard this on a news channel either. Till his death Lee promoted no civil war monuments, they divide. They do, he was right.
     
    #25 Mr.Vanvandenburg, Dec 6, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2023
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Nope.
    Not even close.
    [​IMG]
    I won't bother you further about the protests ON 6 Jan or attempt to fill in some of the 'yuge' gaps that you seem to have in your primary school US History knowledge.

    Wow.
    THAT went ugly.

    Robert Edward Lee was a damned Traitor who obviously didn't read a single word on his commissioning certificate nor did he honour a single word of the oath he took upon graduating from the finishing school on the Hudson.
    It's one thing to be an uneducated farmer in the Deep South and be beguiled by some warped sense of honor to home and hearth, but Lee was an active, serving officer in the US Army when Abraham Lincoln offered him command of the Federal forces in April 1861. Lee declined and tendered his resignation from the army when the state of Virginia seceded on April 17.
    Had he simply resigned then he would only have been a deserter in wartime.
    Instead he chose to participate in the rebellion.
    If not summarily executed after the rebellion was put down he should have been keeping Dr Samuel Mudd company down in Ft Jefferson at hard labour, perhaps cleaning latrines until he drew his last breath - then being buried in those same facilities.

    I do not mind the attempt at rehabilitating his reputation.
    Every now and again people will try the same thing with Nate Forrest.
    I've reminded people in the past that they used Lee's alleged actual granddaughter to commission the one and only US Navy Warship ever commissioned bearing his name (SSBN-601) - although I have no idea how this 'granddaughter' might be differentiated from the millions and millions of people in the US South that claim to have some faint blood relationship with the scoundrel.

    There's a monument to General Benedict Arnold's boot in Stillwater, NY.
    Perhaps a similar shrine should be established for Lee's trousers.
     
  7. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Active Member

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    Kind Sir, Looks like You, Me, and Lee agree on his statue coming down.
     
    #27 Mr.Vanvandenburg, Dec 6, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2023
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there are two sides to blindly following the leaders of your country, whatever country you live in. and knowing the right side at the time is an extremely difficult thing.
    in my own generation, vietnam taught us a lot. i'm glad i didn't have to die or be maimed for no reason, i wish others didn't as well, but some were gung ho
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Indeed!

    For me, it was: Phaedo - Wikipedia

    Man ought not to kill himself because he possesses no actual ownership of himself, as he is actually the property of the gods. He says, "I too believe that the gods are our guardians, and that we men are a chattel of theirs". While the philosopher seeks always to rid himself of the body, and to focus solely on things concerning the soul, to commit suicide is prohibited as man is not sole possessor of his body. For, as stated in the Phaedo: "the philosopher more than other men frees the soul from association with the body as much as possible". Body and soul are separate, then. The philosopher frees himself from the body because the body is an impediment to the attainment of truth.[7]

    But the most telling was why he did not flee. It was a question of whether he was a citizen or not. Mark Twain once wrote of a hill man whose conscience was striven between an obligation to kill someone and his belief that killing was wrong. He found no peace until he did the killing.

    Today we see this in the Russian solders to go to Ukraine, often with a bad ending, not because they believe it is a 'noble cause' but because they are Russians. They are true to their tribe even when it is wrong.

    It is the same dilemma faced in political tribes with similar risks.

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    It wasn't exactly 'for no reason' ..... ;)
    One may and some HAVE argued that we never should have gotten into Veet Nam but then you only have to compare South Korea with the DPRK to imagine that something had to be done.

    One of the reasons that Gulf 1 was measured in hours instead of years is that we had the experienced military and the technological means to deal effectively with a 'top 10' (as measured by statisticians of the time) standing army.
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    korea and the gulf were also mistakes imo
     
  12. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Active Member

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    In the Gulf war the Iraqis ran away, like the Afghans did against the Taliban. If the USA started bombing Canadian cities and sent troops in and burned towns, I don’t think my heart would be in it. Isn’t that the idea of the op? Russians have to kill their neighbors. It seems some like it though.
     
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  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    or mexico
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    shoot, where would i run to if we invade our neighbors?
     
  15. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Active Member

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    A motorhome?
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Patron saint of newly poured sidewalks

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    Ah, your off-shore investment.
     
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  18. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Easy to armchair quarterback after the facts - a little harder to make the right play with a bunch of 350-pound lineman chasing you.

    Maybe a point to remember- during the Viet Nam War no one asked me an opinion of what I thought - I got a draft notice and had to serve.

    Many were just answering the call of duty from our country - we were basically 18-year-old snot nosed kids straight out of high school that were drafted.

    Right or wrong - we did do what our country asked us, even though most of us were scared sh_ _less.

    Looking back I am proud to have served in the Armed Services - one of the defining parts of my life as far as growing up and maturing. Probably a lot of Baby Boomers feel that way.

    Doesn't mean you support war. I suspect many soldiers would much prefer not going into armed combat - it is the governments and people safe at home that don't mind it so much.
     
    #38 John321, Dec 7, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
  19. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    We will never know about Korea, but my finely honed Spidey senses inform me that a unified DPRK wasn't the end goal, and the world is probably better off with a healthy, vibrant ROK.

    As far as the Gulf, people tend to forget that the first Gulf wah was 33 years ago, some 10 years before the miracle of hydraulic fracturing began to decrease our dependence on imports.
    I remember a lot of things about G1 including a bunch of idealists saying how unfortunate it was that we were 'going to war over oil.'
    I've also been in parts of the US where the gasoline spigot was turned off for a couple of weeks because no roads were open and the electricity and telecommunications were also turned off.
    It's easy to be the best football coach in the world.......on Monday morning, but I will tell you this much:
    NOT all of the people who protested with their "No War for Oil!" signs walked to the demonstrations and IN 1990 those same dreamy eyed idealists would have demanded that "somebody do something NOW!!!" if the oil imports were disrupted by a management change in some of the other OPEC nations because we failed to intervene (WITH HELP!!!) with the first such attempt.
    I seem also to remember that there was something called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics back then and it sort of went away very shortly thereafter.
    Hmmmmm.....

    You can make an argument about Gulf 2.
    I'll probably argue back since I was THERE too, and we have Styria and the birth of the Wagner group as examples of how NOT to deal with dictatorships. Also (since nobody has been keeping track!) about a quarter of the world's uranium production has also recently come under new ownership.
    You can make an argument about the 'Stan too - but remember how the Kabul skydiving club got started in 2021, and how millions of schoolgirls and college educated women are now living under the sweet tender mercies of that old fashioned 10th century tribal law disguising itself as a religion.


    SO.....what about Ukraine? ;)
    Israel?
    The Philippines?
    Guiana?
     
    #39 ETC(SS), Dec 7, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2023
  20. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Active Member

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    Municipal monthly unlimited bus pass and a hotel that just writes whatever name you give down? Then how to get untraceable cash? It’s not as easy as it sounds to disappear but still be here.