1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Featured Why two-motor hybrid systems are better than those with just one

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,373
    15,513
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Source: Why two-motor hybrid systems are better than those with just one

    Six years ago, we wrote that a number of single-motor hybrid systems were about to enter the market.

    They represented a new approach to a technology pioneered in 1997, when the first-generation Toyota Prius was launched in Japan.

    Through 2010, all the full-hybrid vehicles introduced by Ford and General Motors used systems designed around a pair of motor-generators
    . . .

    So this was my comment:

    In 2005, there was a single motor, Honda IMA, and the two motor, Prius. I chose the system with the higher ratio of electric-to-engine power and never looked back. But technology moved on.

    The Prius Prime has two electric motors that with the one-way clutch can work as a single motor. There are no 'shift points' so the transmission remains mechanically simple and the ride smooth and quiet in contrast to the Ioniq Blue that I test drove.

    It is possible to make a single motor, hybrid with similar, no-shift point, performance like our BMW i3-REx. So it is not the motor count but how much they make the ride quiet, smooth, and without the frantic-motion of a shifting transmission.

    Thoughts? Be sure to copy them to the article comment section.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,045
    11,514
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    There reason for why the two motor is better is weak, and they even acknowledge that.
    I was actually hoping for a more technical comparison, such as cost differences.

    The reason we are seeing one motor, full strength parallel hybrids now is that the coordination of the system components was simply not possible when the Prius first came to market. The drive experience may not be flawless at this time, but so were blended regen and friction brake systems back in the day. This could improve in time for the hybrid system.

    Then there are people that prefer shifting over CVT like driving. The article even had a negative to say about power-splits on that front.
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,856
    8,159
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    i never bothered to consider GM's volt (gen 1 or 2) that much, over the years - but Bob's putting forth the 2 motor / 1 motor debate caused me to go looking - & this was what i found . . . . from the Volt's engineer - explaining the how & why's of 1 versus 2 motors.



    i thought he made a good case - & stated it in a way that my simple mind could easily grasp.
    .
     
  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,904
    16,128
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I edited the title @bwilson4web to match the title of the article you linked. It made a touch more sense as I found "motor count article" to be a bit ambiguous. :)
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,373
    15,513
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Nice video that also points out there are no stepped gears involved. The last GM transmission schematic I'd seen was the 'two-mode' and it was ... sad.

    Bob Wilson
     
    hill likes this.
  6. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    6,978
    3,213
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    The Gen 1 Volt also worked in single and twin motor configurations, depending on the speed.
     
  7. kevinwhite

    kevinwhite Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    331
    199
    0
    Location:
    Los Gatos Ca
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    There are two motor-generators in the BMW i3-Rex. It just happens that one of them is always a generator (the one in the range extender).

    kevin
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,373
    15,513
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    By that logic, every EV has two motor-generators with one somewhere in the grid and the other in the car.

    You do realize that the generator does not have to operate at the same time as the motor, right? It a subtle distinction.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #8 bwilson4web, Jul 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  9. kevinwhite

    kevinwhite Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    331
    199
    0
    Location:
    Los Gatos Ca
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    From that aspect Mg1 doesn't always have to have any power going to it in the Prius.

    I think the main distinction between the Toyota/Ford approach and the others is using a secondary motor instead of a changeable gear set - a series hybrid such as the i3 is closer to the series/parallel method than the single motor used in IMA or others.

    kevin
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  10. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    1,396
    1,489
    0
    Location:
    Newark, OH, USA
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    To be fair, there's several levels of 2-mode system - the simplest form (as used in the Allison H40EP/EP40/H50EP/EP50, the Gen 2 Volt, and the current Malibu hybrid) isn't much more complex than a Prius transmission. The one used in the pickups, OTOH, had a lot going on.

    In any case, really, the biggest problem with 1-motor systems boils down to the fact that it's hard for them to switch between engine off and engine on operation. The Honda IMA vehicles got around this by not even trying to propel the vehicle with the engine off - the engine has to be running to get propulsive force. And, the Ioniq actually is technically a 2-motor system, because it has a small motor/generator on the engine's accessory drive belt, primarily for starting the engine so it can rev match smoothly with the rest of the system.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,373
    15,513
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Depending on speed, MG1 can be a generator or a motor to move the car. Often called heretical mode, it increases the counter torque so the engine turns slower. In contrast, the generator of the BMW i3-REx plays no mechanical part in driving the wheels.
    Some form of power-split device might have been a better question than one or two motors.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,045
    11,514
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The article's entire argument for a power-split being better than a parallel system is this, "We've concluded that single-motor systems simply get caught out more by sudden on-off acceleration: we haven't driven one that wasn't at least slightly lumpy or jerky at some point."

    By that argument, friction only brakes on the brake pedal is better than having regen also controlled by it. This is a very subjective criteria in which to declare one better than the other. As I said, I was really hoping for something more substansive.