What do you think about Global Warming?

malorn · 02-13-2007, 04:36 PM

I would love to know the opinions of PC'ers about Global Warming.

dragonfly · 02-13-2007, 04:48 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Feb, 01:36 PM) [snapback]389730[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

I would love to know the opinions of PC'ers about Global Warming.
[/b]

We did one of these a while back, but it might have been in FHOP.

malorn · 02-13-2007, 05:17 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Feb 13 2007, 03:48 PM) [snapback]389746[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

We did one of these a while back, but it might have been in FHOP.
[/b]

I must have missed that.

skruse · 02-13-2007, 05:29 PM

Since Global Warming or climate change is based on evidence and not belief, we should reference the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Don't "believe", read, test and understand.

http://www.ipcc.ch/

TimBikes · 02-14-2007, 02:16 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skruse @ Feb 13 2007, 02:29 PM) [snapback]389777[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Since Global Warming or climate change is based on evidence and not belief, we should reference the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Don't "believe", read, test and understand.

http://www.ipcc.ch/
[/b]

Understand within the limitations of our knowledge. I voted for real and accelerated by man - but there are also natural causes of climate change we do not fully (or even mildly) understand nor do we completely understand the degree to which man is accelerating climate change against this backdrop of natural causes. Worse, there is very little in the way of serious assessment of the effectiveness of CO2 reduction schemes in reducing the impact of climate change, Kyoto being a prime example. And further, the focus on CO2 reduction (while important) diverts attention from equally detrimental human impacts to climate & environment (particularly on a regional scale), such as land use policies.

LaughingMan · 02-14-2007, 03:06 AM

Even if global warming is a natural occurrence and man has nothing to do with it, the ramifications of such a natural occurrence are still substantial.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's going to be a gentle process that civilization as we know it today can just coast through...

Our modern civilization depends on the ecological balance the earth has struck for us for the last few millenia. Even if we aren't at fault, we're still going to have to deal with the consequences of it... The nature we all know and love may have a very different form in a few generations.

The line of argument that "it's real, but it's natural, and we didn't do it" seems not to address the real problem though. It effectively deflects the blame from the hydrocarbon industry as to why it happened in the first place, but what do we do about it, even if it's natural?

The problem that I have with many of the arguments against the overriding consensus of climate change is that those arguments are designed to deflect blame away from mankind and industry, but don't offer any solutions or next steps to take (other than maintain the status quo) to climate change, even if they acknowledge it exists.

To me, that reeks of astroturf.

**Tideland Prius** · 02-14-2007, 03:14 AM

Define short-term.

I do believe it's happening but it's not solely on our doings. I think we're merely accelerating or at least play a part in it but I also believe the Earth has cycles and periods of hot and cold weather (I mean, global cooling caused several ice ages didn't it?)

However, note that particulates in the air can help cool by reflecting incoming solar (if they're large enough.. is that Rayleigh scattering? which means Mie is the smaller particles?). However, the contribute a bit of heat by being cloud condensation nucleis for water vapour to condense and release latent heat. But then the result of that is more cloud cover which also aids in reflecting incoming solar radiation.

malorn · 02-14-2007, 03:29 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Feb 14 2007, 02:14 AM) [snapback]390077[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Define short-term.

I do believe it's happening but it's not solely on our doings. I think we're merely accelerating or at least play a part in it but I also believe the Earth has cycles and periods of hot and cold weather (I mean, global cooling caused several ice ages didn't it?)

However, note that particulates in the air can help cool by reflecting incoming solar (if they're large enough.. is that Rayleigh scattering? which means Mie is the smaller particles?). However, the contribute a bit of heat by being cloud condensation nucleis for water vapour to condense and release latent heat. But then the result of that is more cloud cover which also aids in reflecting incoming solar radiation.
[/b]

I am still undecided myself. I seem to read articles on both sides claiming the "scientific" high ground. The current hype surrounding it reminds me of the hype surrounding Y2K. I was told by several "experts" of the impending doom and what I needed to do to protect my businesses. I admit I wasted about $50K on that problem. I watched an "inconvenient Truth" the other night and was just wondering what you all thought.

tripp · 02-14-2007, 04:49 PM

Well, Y2K could have been a serious issue. Fortunately people knew it was going to be an issue and, at the end of the day, it was a pretty simple problem to fix. If people had said that y2K was a myth or that it would wreck the economy to fix it, and then done nothing, there would have been serious repercussions. In some ways AGW is similar, but it's a much more difficult problem to fix and understanding the ramifications of different courses of action is vastly more difficult.

Gore brings up some valid points and has done a good job of bringing the issue into the public's focus. He brings up some scary scenarios, to be sure. Those scenarios have some probability attached to them. We don't really know how likely some of them are (I'm thinking sea level rise here). There's some discrepancy depending upon how you model these systems. But the worst thing that we can do is sit on our hands and do nothing. Waiting until we have a high degree of certainty about the outcomes is pretty foolish.

AnOldHouse · 02-14-2007, 05:17 PM

I selected "Global Warming is short-term change in weather being hyped by environmentalists and the media" because of how it is mostly way over hyped by the media, however, it is definitely not a "short-term change" at all. Unfortunately, there was not a selection for "real" or "long-term" combined with media hype.

It's been going on for thousands of years. 10,000 years ago what is now known as Connecticut emerged from a 200 foot ice pack.

View Poll Results: Global Warming
Global Warming is a huge problem and is caused by man	20	42.55%
Global Warming is huge problem and is being accelerated by man	14	29.79%
Global Warming is a huge problem that has natural causes	0	0%
Global Warming is real and is caused by man	3	6.38%
Global Warming is real and is being accelerated by man	3	6.38%
Global Warming is real and is a natural occurence	3	6.38%
Global Warming is simply a short-term caused by natural processes	1	2.13%
Global Warming is short-term change in weather being hyped by environmentalists and the media	3	6.38%
Global Warming is not real, but was created by environmental groups	0	0%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

02-14-2007, 03:06 AM	#6
LaughingMan Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Marlborough, MA Posts: 1,387 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Even if global warming is a natural occurrence and man has nothing to do with it, the ramifications of such a natural occurrence are still substantial. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's going to be a gentle process that civilization as we know it today can just coast through... Our modern civilization depends on the ecological balance the earth has struck for us for the last few millenia. Even if we aren't at fault, we're still going to have to deal with the consequences of it... The nature we all know and love may have a very different form in a few generations. The line of argument that "it's real, but it's natural, and we didn't do it" seems not to address the real problem though. It effectively deflects the blame from the hydrocarbon industry as to why it happened in the first place, but what do we do about it, even if it's natural? The problem that I have with many of the arguments against the overriding consensus of climate change is that those arguments are designed to deflect blame away from mankind and industry, but don't offer any solutions or next steps to take (other than maintain the status quo) to climate change, even if they acknowledge it exists. To me, that reeks of astroturf. __________________ "I thought what I'd do was I'd pretend I was one of those deaf mutes... or should I?" 2005 Seaside Pearl Prius, with Nav. "Tachikoma"

02-14-2007, 03:14 AM	#7
Tideland Prius Moderator of the North Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 19,600 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: N/A Package: Technology Package (Canada) Thanks: 227 Thanked 342 Times in 241 Posts Friends: 23	Define short-term. I do believe it's happening but it's not solely on our doings. I think we're merely accelerating or at least play a part in it but I also believe the Earth has cycles and periods of hot and cold weather (I mean, global cooling caused several ice ages didn't it?) However, note that particulates in the air can help cool by reflecting incoming solar (if they're large enough.. is that Rayleigh scattering? which means Mie is the smaller particles?). However, the contribute a bit of heat by being cloud condensation nucleis for water vapour to condense and release latent heat. But then the result of that is more cloud cover which also aids in reflecting incoming solar radiation. __________________ 2005 Tideland Pearl Premium Package 25/10/04 VVT-i Emblem, Sport Pedals, All-Weather Mats, Cargo Mat, EV Mod, JDM Prius Footwell Lighting, DICE iPod Kit 2008 Deep Black smart fortwo passion coupé - sold (6.1L/100km) 2010 Blue Ribbon Metallic Technology Package 29/08/09 All-Weather Mats, Homemade Console Pads, LED lighting "Ask an Expert" on Facebook I am not employed by Toyota, and the opinions expressed by me as a Prius Expert are not those of Toyota.

02-14-2007, 04:49 PM	#9
tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it? Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,323 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: Package: #3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Friends: 6	Well, Y2K could have been a serious issue. Fortunately people knew it was going to be an issue and, at the end of the day, it was a pretty simple problem to fix. If people had said that y2K was a myth or that it would wreck the economy to fix it, and then done nothing, there would have been serious repercussions. In some ways AGW is similar, but it's a much more difficult problem to fix and understanding the ramifications of different courses of action is vastly more difficult. Gore brings up some valid points and has done a good job of bringing the issue into the public's focus. He brings up some scary scenarios, to be sure. Those scenarios have some probability attached to them. We don't really know how likely some of them are (I'm thinking sea level rise here). There's some discrepancy depending upon how you model these systems. But the worst thing that we can do is sit on our hands and do nothing. Waiting until we have a high degree of certainty about the outcomes is pretty foolish. __________________ Cheers, Tripp 2005 Silver Pkg 3, OEM Block Heater, Coastal Tech EV mod, BT Tech Chassis Stiffener, hell damned infernal reverse beep disabled Boulder Real Estate Howay the Toon! "Sometimes when you aim for the stars, you hit the moon." -- Ian Holloway

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02-13-2007, 04:36 PM	#1
malorn Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: "Somewhere in Flyover Country" Posts: 3,503 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Friends: 0	I would love to know the opinions of PC'ers about Global Warming.

02-13-2007, 05:29 PM	#4
skruse Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Great Central Valley, Fresno, CA Posts: 1,206 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #6 Touring Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Friends: 2	Since Global Warming or climate change is based on evidence and not belief, we should reference the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Don't "believe", read, test and understand. http://www.ipcc.ch/

02-14-2007, 05:17 PM	#10
AnOldHouse PRIUS...it isn't just for vegans anymore. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Middlesex County, Connecticut Posts: 675 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	I selected "Global Warming is short-term change in weather being hyped by environmentalists and the media" because of how it is mostly way over hyped by the media, however, it is definitely not a "short-term change" at all. Unfortunately, there was not a selection for "real" or "long-term" combined with media hype. It's been going on for thousands of years. 10,000 years ago what is now known as Connecticut emerged from a 200 foot ice pack.