EEStor's new automotive power source

etyler88 · 09-21-2006, 11:53 AM

Smells like snake oil but they got CNN to bite. Sedans become Ferraris.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/15/technology....biz2/index.htm

brandon · 09-21-2006, 12:01 PM

No prototypes or anything? Any proof that the idea is even feasible? I have an idea to make a car that runs on hope and sunshine, but I'm not about to release those details to CNN.

eagle33199 · 09-21-2006, 12:27 PM

Definately sounds a little fishy...

Quote:

If it works as it's supposed to, it will charge up in five minutes and provide enough energy to drive 500 miles on about $9 worth of electricity.
[/b]

Uh-huh... Lets do a little math here:
Current Prius Batteries: 1.5kW
Current Prius EV range: 1 mile

So to go 500 Miles you would need somewhere in the range of 750kW of power stored in these "non-batteries".

Lets charge it at a high voltage charging station in the house, say 250V. (to make the math easy)

also, 1 kW = 1000 amp-volt hours.

So this leaves us with a charging current of 3000 amp-hours, delivered in 5 minutes, for a grand total of 36,000 amps.

Now, correct me if i'm wrong, but is there anything capable of holding that large amount of current at reasonable prices?

Seems to me that the math just doesn't support whats being said here...

Now, Using the Prius probably isn't the best example to base this off of... i'd be interested to have Darell chime in with numbers from his EV use and experience with charging those up.

naterprius · 09-21-2006, 12:34 PM

Doesn't sound like snake oil. It sounds like a super capacitor. The theory is sound; they aren't claiming energy from nothing and the numbers for distance traveled for the energy cost are within reason. So is the "ferrari sedan" comparison, most EV enthusiasts will tell you that electric motors put gasoline motors to shame.

The ceramics, aluminum oxide, and glass all hint at a super capacitor as well.

Let's hope they get this thing to market!

Nate

pstockley · 09-21-2006, 12:42 PM

I read the patent about 6 months ago. I wouldn't say it is snake oil. However, it certainly has its challenges. Firstly, this is hyper capacitor and its large storage capabilities come from the very high voltage it operates at (3000v). So charging will require some pretty specialized equipment. Secondly, capacitors exhibit constantly dropping voltage as they run down. This it tough to deal with from an electronics standpoint where you have a motor expecting pretty constant voltage. So any kind of controller would be pretty trick (read expensive). Having said all that, I hope it does come to something as this is just wat ev and plug-in hybrids need. There are some pretty big names invested in it so I think there is at least a slim chance of success.

donee · 09-21-2006, 08:51 PM

Hi Pstockley,

Is this some kind of nano- or micro- granual Ferro-Electric ceramic device? Ferro-Electric ceramics have extra-ordinary dielectric constants. Capacitance is related to dielectric constant the higher the the smaller the capacitor is for a given capacitance (Capacitance = D.C. times Surface Area / plate spacing). The amount of charge that can be practically stored on a plate is proportional to capacitance (Charge = Voltage times Capacitance). The energy a capacitor can store is 1/2 Capacitance times Voltage^2. So, putting this altogether Energy is 1/2 relative D.C. times permitiviy of vacum times Area times Voltage^2 / plate spacing.

Now a Ferro Electric dielectric can have a Relative Dielectric Constant of 6000! Versus a typical ceramic in the 10 to 100 range, while Air is near 1, and plastics are around 2 to 6.

An issue with Ferro Electric dielectrics are they are highly temperature sensative. A sudden change in temperature (like falling into icy water) might be dangerous. 80 percent change in capacitance is going to unleash allot of charge!

So, lets see, 1/2 times 6000 times 8.854 e-12 Farads/meter times area times 3000 Volts squared / .0001 meters is 2391 joules/square meter. This assumes one can get the spacing at 3000 volts down to .005 inches (just a guess). So, now a maybe with the ganulization they get 10 square meters into a 3 by 12 cylinder, so that makes for 24 kJoules, or 6.7 watt hours.

Does not sound like a what people are saying is claimed on here. Maybe there is more area than my guess. Maybe I made a mistake in the theory or math. Maybe reality is being hyped. Maybe all of the above. Still sounds interesting if that is what it is.

tripp · 09-21-2006, 10:06 PM

EEStor has been a bit squirly in the past. It sounds fantastic but they've cloaked themselves in mystery for a while now. Naturally I'd love to see this succeed but I'm not holding my breath. The ultra-capacitor in combination with batteries and electric motors does seem (at least to this layman) like a good idea.

donee · 09-21-2006, 10:28 PM

Hi All,

I ve have skimmed sections of the patent that are shown at http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm. This site seems to be one of those investor things. So, I ignored allot of it, and just looked at the PDF of the patent.

This thing is an axially stacked discoidal array capacitor made with Barium Titanate, which is the most commonly used ferro-electric dielectric material in electronics. Discoidal array BaTi04 capacitors are made by a variety of companies, but I have never seen anything this big before! The main use of BaTiO4 in eletronics is to make things very tiny! Discoidal Array capacitors are commonly used for decoupling noise signals from electronics circuits in interconnects that pass through a bulkhead. Due to the high dielectric constant, relatively big capacitors can be integrated into standard connector bodies.

The BaTi04 can be formulated to a wide variety of resulting dielectric constants, and various temperature coeficients. The extremely high dielectric constants (Er) are wildly variable with temperature for electronic purposes. The claimed Er for this capacitor , including the protective layers is 29480. I had not hear of any BaTi04 formulations above 10000 previously, but I am not an expert in these dielectrics, I just design the capacitors for RF uses on occaision. Another patent is referenced with regard to the formulation of this super high Er BaTiO4 formulation (Hansen. 2000)

There is no granularity used. The high surface area has been claimed to achieved by the common MLC (Multi-Layer Capacitor) ceramic process. Additional patented layerings are added, to protect the BaTi04 and improve the breakdown performance to 5 e 6 (claimed ) V/cm, which would allow for a 3500 volt capacitor to have a dielectric thickness of .0003 inches. This is extremely thin layers.

Due to the extremlly big dielectric constant and the extremely high breakdown field strength claimed, it appears to be practical to make a discoidal array capacitor with the claimed 31 farad, 3500 volt performance. Which would then have an energy storage capacity of 52 kw-hours.

This really looks good. Like it could be real. And I have some professional knowledge regarding these devices.

The temperature variability would be my main concern. If your at max charge at max capacitance temp, and the temp changes rapidly overnight, the voltage would increase dramatically and smoke the thing and start a fire. This may limit what charge can actually be stored in the device well below the 52 Kw-hour max limit. The 52 KW-hour limit might be used as the max level, that would be required to be blead off driving around, before parking the car.

The claims about rapid charging are what the device is capable of, not what the power lines can deliver. If you had another such device in your house, and charged it within the limits of the power line over time, then concievably you could charge the device in your car up much more quickly than the the power line when you got home.

If this is true, I want one in my Prius! But not until its been carefully engineered into the system.

SoopahMan · 09-22-2006, 04:03 AM

Snake oil indeed. Although these ultracapacitors will likely outdo existing ultracapacitors, ask this company about consistent voltage output and how long this electrical storage medium can hold a charge.

Or just google "ultracapacitor" to get a general idea: the answers are inconsistent, and poorly.

This is cool technology with cool applications but cars are going to be a rough one if at all for this product. But we'll see; for now this is vaporware. Maybe they've somehow solved both of those problems. If they have I bet they'd trumpet it, and instead they're being quiet... but well see.

clett · 09-22-2006, 05:15 AM

Sshhh!! We're not meant to talk about EEstor!

I've seen figures of 280 Wh/kg for the final product, which is better than today's lithium ion. Of course the price, longevity, charge rate etc are also way better than batteries.

I'd love to see them get them into vehicles, but here is my major concern.

Automotive manufacturers are super-anal about safety, loads of great batteries are currently rejected on the grounds of uncertainty of what might happen to the cells in an accident, or at extremes of temperature, for example.

With this much energy (50 kWh) capable of being released so quickly, any kind of short, crush or piercing damage will almost certainly cause a very big explosion.

A123 and Valence LiIon cells have conquered this aspect, and you can shoot, flame, pierce, crush, overcharge these with no fear of a fire developing. A massive ultracap is an entirely different story, and sadly the regulators may see things in this way....

Having said that, spectacular profits could emerge from the home energy storage market though, a lot of future homes will welcome the chance to be properly off-grid.

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/23961-eestor-s-new-automotive-power-source.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date
EEStor around the Forum World. - EEStor Ultracapacitors: Battery Revolution begins with Electric Cars	This thread	Refback	07-30-2008 06:08 AM

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09-21-2006, 11:53 AM	#1
etyler88 etyler88 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 441 My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #3 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Smells like snake oil but they got CNN to bite. Sedans become Ferraris. http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/15/technology....biz2/index.htm

09-21-2006, 12:01 PM	#2
brandon Proud member of the "Lunatic Fringe" Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Manhattan, KS Posts: 769 My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #6 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	No prototypes or anything? Any proof that the idea is even feasible? I have an idea to make a car that runs on hope and sunshine, but I'm not about to release those details to CNN.

09-21-2006, 12:34 PM	#4
naterprius Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,830 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Package: N/A Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Doesn't sound like snake oil. It sounds like a super capacitor. The theory is sound; they aren't claiming energy from nothing and the numbers for distance traveled for the energy cost are within reason. So is the "ferrari sedan" comparison, most EV enthusiasts will tell you that electric motors put gasoline motors to shame. The ceramics, aluminum oxide, and glass all hint at a super capacitor as well. Let's hope they get this thing to market! Nate

09-21-2006, 12:42 PM	#5
pstockley Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 16 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I read the patent about 6 months ago. I wouldn't say it is snake oil. However, it certainly has its challenges. Firstly, this is hyper capacitor and its large storage capabilities come from the very high voltage it operates at (3000v). So charging will require some pretty specialized equipment. Secondly, capacitors exhibit constantly dropping voltage as they run down. This it tough to deal with from an electronics standpoint where you have a motor expecting pretty constant voltage. So any kind of controller would be pretty trick (read expensive). Having said all that, I hope it does come to something as this is just wat ev and plug-in hybrids need. There are some pretty big names invested in it so I think there is at least a slim chance of success.

09-21-2006, 08:51 PM	#6
donee Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,389 My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #2 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Hi Pstockley, Is this some kind of nano- or micro- granual Ferro-Electric ceramic device? Ferro-Electric ceramics have extra-ordinary dielectric constants. Capacitance is related to dielectric constant the higher the the smaller the capacitor is for a given capacitance (Capacitance = D.C. times Surface Area / plate spacing). The amount of charge that can be practically stored on a plate is proportional to capacitance (Charge = Voltage times Capacitance). The energy a capacitor can store is 1/2 Capacitance times Voltage^2. So, putting this altogether Energy is 1/2 relative D.C. times permitiviy of vacum times Area times Voltage^2 / plate spacing. Now a Ferro Electric dielectric can have a Relative Dielectric Constant of 6000! Versus a typical ceramic in the 10 to 100 range, while Air is near 1, and plastics are around 2 to 6. An issue with Ferro Electric dielectrics are they are highly temperature sensative. A sudden change in temperature (like falling into icy water) might be dangerous. 80 percent change in capacitance is going to unleash allot of charge! So, lets see, 1/2 times 6000 times 8.854 e-12 Farads/meter times area times 3000 Volts squared / .0001 meters is 2391 joules/square meter. This assumes one can get the spacing at 3000 volts down to .005 inches (just a guess). So, now a maybe with the ganulization they get 10 square meters into a 3 by 12 cylinder, so that makes for 24 kJoules, or 6.7 watt hours. Does not sound like a what people are saying is claimed on here. Maybe there is more area than my guess. Maybe I made a mistake in the theory or math. Maybe reality is being hyped. Maybe all of the above. Still sounds interesting if that is what it is.

09-21-2006, 10:06 PM	#7
tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it? Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 3,253 My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #3 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 2	EEStor has been a bit squirly in the past. It sounds fantastic but they've cloaked themselves in mystery for a while now. Naturally I'd love to see this succeed but I'm not holding my breath. The ultra-capacitor in combination with batteries and electric motors does seem (at least to this layman) like a good idea.

09-21-2006, 10:28 PM	#8
donee Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,389 My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #2 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Hi All, I ve have skimmed sections of the patent that are shown at http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm. This site seems to be one of those investor things. So, I ignored allot of it, and just looked at the PDF of the patent. This thing is an axially stacked discoidal array capacitor made with Barium Titanate, which is the most commonly used ferro-electric dielectric material in electronics. Discoidal array BaTi04 capacitors are made by a variety of companies, but I have never seen anything this big before! The main use of BaTiO4 in eletronics is to make things very tiny! Discoidal Array capacitors are commonly used for decoupling noise signals from electronics circuits in interconnects that pass through a bulkhead. Due to the high dielectric constant, relatively big capacitors can be integrated into standard connector bodies. The BaTi04 can be formulated to a wide variety of resulting dielectric constants, and various temperature coeficients. The extremely high dielectric constants (Er) are wildly variable with temperature for electronic purposes. The claimed Er for this capacitor , including the protective layers is 29480. I had not hear of any BaTi04 formulations above 10000 previously, but I am not an expert in these dielectrics, I just design the capacitors for RF uses on occaision. Another patent is referenced with regard to the formulation of this super high Er BaTiO4 formulation (Hansen. 2000) There is no granularity used. The high surface area has been claimed to achieved by the common MLC (Multi-Layer Capacitor) ceramic process. Additional patented layerings are added, to protect the BaTi04 and improve the breakdown performance to 5 e 6 (claimed ) V/cm, which would allow for a 3500 volt capacitor to have a dielectric thickness of .0003 inches. This is extremely thin layers. Due to the extremlly big dielectric constant and the extremely high breakdown field strength claimed, it appears to be practical to make a discoidal array capacitor with the claimed 31 farad, 3500 volt performance. Which would then have an energy storage capacity of 52 kw-hours. This really looks good. Like it could be real. And I have some professional knowledge regarding these devices. The temperature variability would be my main concern. If your at max charge at max capacitance temp, and the temp changes rapidly overnight, the voltage would increase dramatically and smoke the thing and start a fire. This may limit what charge can actually be stored in the device well below the 52 Kw-hour max limit. The 52 KW-hour limit might be used as the max level, that would be required to be blead off driving around, before parking the car. The claims about rapid charging are what the device is capable of, not what the power lines can deliver. If you had another such device in your house, and charged it within the limits of the power line over time, then concievably you could charge the device in your car up much more quickly than the the power line when you got home. If this is true, I want one in my Prius! But not until its been carefully engineered into the system.

09-22-2006, 04:03 AM	#9
SoopahMan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 104 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Snake oil indeed. Although these ultracapacitors will likely outdo existing ultracapacitors, ask this company about consistent voltage output and how long this electrical storage medium can hold a charge. Or just google "ultracapacitor" to get a general idea: the answers are inconsistent, and poorly. This is cool technology with cool applications but cars are going to be a rough one if at all for this product. But we'll see; for now this is vaporware. Maybe they've somehow solved both of those problems. If they have I bet they'd trumpet it, and instead they're being quiet... but well see.

09-22-2006, 05:15 AM	#10
clett Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 435 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Package: N/A Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Sshhh!! We're not meant to talk about EEstor! I've seen figures of 280 Wh/kg for the final product, which is better than today's lithium ion. Of course the price, longevity, charge rate etc are also way better than batteries. I'd love to see them get them into vehicles, but here is my major concern. Automotive manufacturers are super-anal about safety, loads of great batteries are currently rejected on the grounds of uncertainty of what might happen to the cells in an accident, or at extremes of temperature, for example. With this much energy (50 kWh) capable of being released so quickly, any kind of short, crush or piercing damage will almost certainly cause a very big explosion. A123 and Valence LiIon cells have conquered this aspect, and you can shoot, flame, pierce, crush, overcharge these with no fear of a fire developing. A massive ultracap is an entirely different story, and sadly the regulators may see things in this way.... Having said that, spectacular profits could emerge from the home energy storage market though, a lot of future homes will welcome the chance to be properly off-grid.