The Truth About Gasoline

[abq sfr]

Judging by PriusChat, Prius owners appear to be very knowledgeable people, but ones with definite points of view. Some of the information in this posting might go against what people believe, I’m just repeating info. A member of a local gasoline marketers association came to speak at a club meeting this week. He was very informative and candid with the facts he presented. He owns many stations, including a well-known national brand. Some posters in this forum have indicated they get better mpg or performance from different brands of gas. His talk and Q&A indicates that this is probably not the case, at least in my state. My guess is that perceived differences between gasoline brands is really due to weather and driving factors during it's consumption.

1) There are two commercial types of gasoline, branded and unbranded. Branded are Texaco, Chevron, Shell, and other advertised brands. Unbranded are sold at convenience stores, Costco, Sam's Club, and stations unassociated with any advertised brand.

2) Commercially, all gasolines are the same at the distribution point, at the large tanks where it comes out of the pipeline. All tanker trucks fill from the same tanks, both branded and unbranded. The Shell tanker driver swaps his card when he fills, the Chevron tanker driver does the same and so does the unbranded tanker driver, all from the same tank at the distribution yard.

3) Branded tanker drivers add "markers" at the time of filling from the common distribution yard tanks. Markers are required by federal law to enable identification of the brand of gasoline. Markers are additives advertised as Techron or Techroline, Shell's Vektron 3000, etc. His opinion was that these branded markers make no difference in the performance of the fuel, they are simply identification markers for the brand of gasoline (he turned red when he said this, like he was not supposed to). For example (my research).... http://www.ftc.gov/os/2000/01/shellcmp.htm

4) Gas stations that sell 3 octanes only have 2 tanks, one for regular and one for premium. The mid-grade is blended from the two tanks.

5) All gasoline is sent through the same pipeline to the distribution terminals. Different octanes/diesel are separated by a water "pig" in the pipeline on either side of the commodity being transported.

6) Warehouses like Costco and Sam's Club get their gasoline as excess from whatever source is cheapest. However, it’s from the same distribution tanks as all the rest. It can even be branded if from a branded source. They make very little or no profit from their gas sales, it is mostly to get customers to come to the store and buy things inside.

7) E85 fuel is an effort to make it seem like the current administration and American car manufacturers are doing something for the environment. E85 has about a third less energy in it so that you get less miles per gallon (and per tank). E85 cannot be shipped in pipelines because it will damage the pipelines, it must be trucked to wherever it is sold, increasing its cost.

8) During State inspection of gas stations for pump and octane accuracy, it does not matter if the pump outputs more than it’s supposed to, or octane is higher than stated. However, if the pump is shorting customers or octane is below the stated amount, the pump will be locked out until fixed and reinspected.

That’s all I remember right now of the presentation, now I’ll go put my flame suit on
I'm sure some of you will dispute some of these statements. Please be kind!

[iaowings]

my dad retired from a major refining company and those things are about right as far as all gas being lumped together and sent out like you said. The additives are added after the fact. I am unsure about the mid grade octane fuel but I remember him saying it was a rip off because of some manufacturing problems with such and such it was all technical stuff but he was adamant that the mid grade was BS and don’t waist your money on it. And yes he told me the only difference between shell and the non name brand gas was the additives. Now during the summer I do notice shell gas can give my prius about 15- 20 miles more per tank but have no real scientific evidence to back it up but is what I personally think. This summer I am actually going to do some research on this and put it to the test.

[Bill Merchant]

You're just the messenger and I have no reason to shoot you. I think your reporting of what the gasoline distributor said is accurate. I'm not completely sure about the makers bit. It may be that each brand is marked somehow, but I think the additive package, whether added by the tank truck driver or at the station, is different between, say, Chevron and Shell. The thing to remember is that "gasoline" is a blend of all different kinds of hydrocarbons and alcohols. Also, that octane is not a measure of energy content.

[ekpolk]

See www.TopTiergas.com and see if you still buy this guy's stuff. Some of it is right. Much not.

[snowdog650]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Apr 14 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]423477[/snapback]</div>

See www.TopTiergas.com and see if you still buy this guy's stuff. Some of it is right. Much not.
[/b]

Who runs this site? Looks like Big Oil to me, but I could be wrong.

There's always something fishy when you can't see source documentation.

[cc9150]

Branded tanker drivers add "markers" at the time of filling from the common distribution yard tanks. Markers are required by federal law to enable identification of the brand of gasoline. Markers are additives advertised as Techron or Techroline, Shell's Vektron 3000, etc. His opinion was that these branded markers make no difference in the performance of the fuel, they are simply identification markers for the brand of gasoline[/b]

I'm unclear as to what you're saying here. You appear to be saying two contradicting things.

Is it that (a) markers are additives, or (b) markers are not additives?

Or are you saying that a marker simply presents a chemical signature to say, "we pumped this into the Shell station and not into the Chevron station" and said additives do nothing else?

There was a time, 20+ years ago, when the 93 octane gasolines were used as delivery systems for fuel system cleaners. That's how the gasoline vendors marketed those as "premium" fuels. You actually got something else besides an octane boost.

Then the feds came along and mandated minimum levels of detergents, and that by and large went away--although the vendors still use "premium" to describe a higher octane fuel (BP uses silver, gold, and platinum). But now here's Shell saying not only that they've chosen to use a higher level of fuel system cleaners than what the feds mandate, they're also using even more in their 93 octane fuel.

They state, quite clearly, that their "V-Power" fuel is good for cleaning out gunk, and that their non-V-Power fuels meet the "Top Tier" standards for preventing gunk. The Top Tier standard simply ups the ante for fuel system cleaners.

It sounds like your guy denies that?

Did he speak to the Top Tier program at all?

[ESanders2]

I was expecting something controversial from that intro, but that was actually seemed a very pleasant, impartial discussion of some gasoline know-how. Nothing like what I thought you were gearing up for, like, why you shouldn't drive a Prius, or something along those lines.

[walt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(snowdog650 @ Apr 15 2007, 01:37 AM) [snapback]423509[/snapback]</div>

Who runs this site? Looks like Big Oil to me, but I could be wrong.

There's always something fishy when you can't see source documentation.
[/b]

did a 'whois' lookup and came up with the following:

Registrant:
National Products Group
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US

Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM

Administrative Contact :
Denny, Jim
ynnedj@aol.com
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Phone: 918-836-8551

Also went to http://www.aboutus.org/TopTierGas.com and got the following:

Top Tier Gasoline
Description
TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is a recently established new standard for gasoline performance. Four of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.

These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That’s something both drivers and automakers want to avoid.

Address
PO Box 3475
Tulsa OK 74101 US
Contact
National Products Group
+1 918 836 8551, Fax: +1 571 434 4620

And checking into Google Finance, found this gem - check out the matching phone number and address across all three entries:

QuikTrip Corporation owns and operates convenience stores and travel centers located in nine states in the United States. The Company has more than 405 convenience stores, which supply gasoline and sell a variety of products, including 16 to 20 different fountain drinks, coffee and cappuccino, smoothies, Hotzi breakfast and lunch sandwiches, Quik 'n Tasty sandwiches, hot dogs, energy drinks, Hydr8 sports drink and QuikTrip Taquitos. QuikTrip also operates 16 truck stops that offer restrooms, showers, scales, food and beverages, trucking fuel and other truck stop location services. The Company's gasoline is guaranteed, which means that it guarantees to reimburse customers for any repairs related to the use of its gasoline. Its QT Fleetmaster truck fleet fueling diesel fueling program offers businesses customized programs designed to fit their fuel-purchasing needs.

PO Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
USA - Map
+1-918-836-8551 (Phone)
Company website:
http://www.quiktrip.com/

[DaveinOlyWA]

the OP is correct in his synopsis of gasoline. its been posted here by me and others that the ONLY difference in gas is the additives package added by the brand name wholesalers after the gas is retrieved from the exact same regional pipeline. the additives package does not affect performance in anyway. they are only detergents.

for all of those who claim better mileage from one brand over another, they are simply misinterpreting their data period.

this has also been posted here many times, but in light of recent threads, it bears repeating...

higher octane gas does not increase your gas mileage. it simply costs more and in some cases with very high engine compression, (not for a Prius) can improve performance.

[snowdog650]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(walt @ Apr 15 2007, 08:12 AM) [snapback]423603[/snapback]</div>

did a 'whois' lookup and came up with the following:

Registrant:
National Products Group
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US

Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM

Administrative Contact :
Denny, Jim
ynnedj@aol.com
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Phone: 918-836-8551

Also went to http://www.aboutus.org/TopTierGas.com and got the following:

Top Tier Gasoline
Description
TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is a recently established new standard for gasoline performance. Four of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction.

These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That’s something both drivers and automakers want to avoid.

Address
PO Box 3475
Tulsa OK 74101 US
Contact
National Products Group
+1 918 836 8551, Fax: +1 571 434 4620

And checking into Google Finance, found this gem - check out the matching phone number and address across all three entries:

QuikTrip Corporation owns and operates convenience stores and travel centers located in nine states in the United States. The Company has more than 405 convenience stores, which supply gasoline and sell a variety of products, including 16 to 20 different fountain drinks, coffee and cappuccino, smoothies, Hotzi breakfast and lunch sandwiches, Quik 'n Tasty sandwiches, hot dogs, energy drinks, Hydr8 sports drink and QuikTrip Taquitos. QuikTrip also operates 16 truck stops that offer restrooms, showers, scales, food and beverages, trucking fuel and other truck stop location services. The Company's gasoline is guaranteed, which means that it guarantees to reimburse customers for any repairs related to the use of its gasoline. Its QT Fleetmaster truck fleet fueling diesel fueling program offers businesses customized programs designed to fit their fuel-purchasing needs.

PO Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
USA - Map
+1-918-836-8551 (Phone)
Company website:
http://www.quiktrip.com/
[/b]

Nice work, Wait ... so it's owned by a gas station franchise.

Go figure.

I'll trust the OP over this crappy website.