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2009 VW Jetta TDI Emissions Results In!

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by miscrms, Jun 27, 2008.

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  1. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I haven't seen any news articles on this yet, so its Prius Chat Breaking News! :rolleyes:

    No word yet from the EPA as far as I've seen, but CARB has just published their emissions testing results for the '09 Jetta TDI:
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/volkswagen_pc_a0070271_2d0_l2_diesel.pdf

    Here is a comparison article I posted over tdiclub.

    CO: (g/mi)--- FTP75 - US06 - SC03
    '03 TDI: ----- 0.2
    '09 TDI: ----- 0.4 -- 0.01 - 0.02
    '08 5 cyl: --- 0.3 -- 0.6 -- 0.2
    '08 Fit: ----- 0.2 -- 0.2 -- 0.4
    Camry Hybrid:- 0.1 -- 0.5 -- 0.01
    Prius: ------- 0.1 -- 0.0 -- 0.1

    NOx:
    (g/mi)-- FTP75 -- Hwy
    '03 TDI: ----- 0.7 --- 0.5
    '09 TDI: ----- 0.05 -- 0.03
    '08 5 cyl: --- 0.000 - 0.01
    '08 Fit: ----- 0.04 -- 0.03
    Camry Hybrid:- 0.004 - 0.01
    '04 Prius: --- 0.01 -- 0.01

    NMOG: (g/mi)-
    FTP75
    '03 TDI: ---- 0.02
    '09 TDI: ---- 0.012
    '08 5 cyl: -- 0.004
    '08 Fit: ---- 0.044
    Camry Hybrid: 0.008
    '04 Prius: -- 0.009

    HC-NM + NOx: - COMP - US06 - SC03 (g/mi)
    '06 TDI: ---- 0.748 - NA --- NA (federal numbers, no '03 avail)
    '09 TDI: ---- NA ---- 0.08 - 0.12
    '08 5 cyl: -- 0.002 - 0.02 - 0.001 (comp from fed)
    '08 Fit: ---- 0.06 -- 0.01 - 0.01 (comp from fed)
    Camry Hybrid: 0.01 -- 0.01 - 0.005 (comp from fed)
    '04 Prius: -- 0.03 -- 0.03 - 0.04 (comp from fed)

    PM: (g/mi) -- FTP75
    '03 TDI: ---- 0.05 (CA @ 50k miles)
    '06 TDI: ---- 0.046 (fed @ 100k miles)
    '09 TDI: ---- 0.000 (CA @ 120k miles)
    rest -------- NA

    HC: (g/mi) Prod/Trans/Storage - Driving/Sitting/Fueling - Tailpipe (NMOG FTP75) - Total Local HC
    '03 TDI: ---- 0.00064 --- 0.0 + 0.00002+0.000004= 0.000024 -------- 0.02 ---------- 0.02
    '09 TDI: ---- 0.00064 --- 0.0 + 0.00002+0.000004= 0.000024 -------- 0.012 --------- 0.012
    '08 5 cyl: -- 0.18 ------ 0.0 + 0.0019 +0.00167 = 0.00357 --------- 0.004 --------- 0.00757
    '08 Fit: ---- 0.145 ----- 0.01+ 0.00146+0.00133 = 0.01279 --------- 0.044 --------- 0.05679
    Camry Hybrid: 0.13 ------ 0.004+
    0.0019 +0.00334 = 0.00924 --------- 0.008 --------- 0.017
    '04 Prius: -- 0.095 ----- 0.005+0.0013 +0.0000435=0.00634 --------- 0.009 --------- 0.01534

    This part is still pretty over my head, so I'm pretty much using wxmans formulas. The exception is in the sitting calculation I think there was an error. For the 5 cyl Jetta 365 days / 3 day test * 0.23 g/test = 28 g/yr / 15,000 mi/yr = 0.00187 g/mi, not 0.006 g/mi. I also seperate anciliary emissions from the others. While they are important from an overall air quality perspective, they are related to production, transport and storage rather than specific to vehicle operation. As such, they are not generally localized to the area where the vehicle is operated. This is signifigant, as the NOx limited smog theory used to promote the importance of HCs over NOx is a localized effect specific to some dense urban areas. In that context I belive the vehicle emissions are more important than ancilliary. I also believe the evaporative emissions must also be looked at in the context of the tailpipe HC emissions, which I believe are represented in the NMOG measurement.

    CO2: (ton/yr @ 15,000 mi/yr):
    TDI @33mpg: --- 6.4 -- EPA 29/40
    TDI @40mpg: --- 5.3 -- AMCI 38/44
    Jetta 5 cyl: -- 7.7 -- EPA 21/29
    Fit: ---------- 6.1 -- EPA 27/34
    Camry Hybrid: - 5.4 -- EPA 33/34
    Prius @46mpg: - 4.0 -- EPA 48/45
    Prius @52mpg: - 3.5 -- Personal Lifetime Av

    Crude oil Consumption: (gal/yr @ 15,000 mi/yr)
    TDI @33mpg: --- 500 -- EPA 29/40
    TDI @40mpg: --- 412.5 -AMCI 38/44
    Jetta 5 cyl: -- 600 -- EPA 21/29
    Fit: ---------- 479 -- EPA 27/34
    Camry Hybrid: - 424 -- EPA 33/34
    Prius @46mpg: - 311 -- EPA 48/45
    Prius @52mpg: - 275 -- Personal Lifetime Av

    Annual Fuel Cost: (15,000 mi/yr @ US Av $4.08 regular, $4.69 diesel):
    TDI @33mpg: --- $2132 -- EPA 29/40
    TDI @40mpg: --- $1759 -- AMCI 38/44
    Jetta 5 cyl: -- $2552 -- EPA 21/29
    Fit: ---------- $2038 -- EPA 27/34
    Camry Hybrid: - $1799 -- EPA 33/34
    Prius @46mpg: - $1328 -- EPA 48/45
    Prius @52mpg: - $1177 -- Personal Lifetime Av


    Interior Volume: - Passenger - Cargo - Total (cuft)
    '03 TDI: ------------ 87 ------ 13 ----- 100
    '09 TDI: ------------ 91 ------ 16 ----- 107
    '08 5 cyl: ---------- 91 ------ 16 ----- 107
    '08 Fit: ------------ 90 ------ 21 ----- 111
    Camry Hybrid: ------- 101 ----- 11 ----- 112
    '04 Prius: ---------- 96 ------ 16 ----- 112

    5 Year Ownership Costs (Consumer Reports):
    '03 TDI: ---- $36,928 (Edmunds, CR NA)
    '09 TDI: ---- $40,600 (Est CR 5cyl +12% from Edmunds '06 TDI vs. '06 5 Cyl)
    '08 5 cyl: -- $36,250
    '08 Fit: ---- $26,750
    Camry Hybrid: $35,750
    '08 Prius: -- $28,500

    Consumer Reports Reliability:
    '03 TDI: ---- Average
    '09 TDI: ---- Average
    '08 5 cyl: -- Average
    '08 Fit: ---- Much Better than Average
    Camry Hybrid: Much Better than Average
    '08 Prius: -- Much Better than Average



    Relative performance within the group:
    Summary Score Card: '03 TDI - '09 TDI - Jetta 5cyl - Fit - Camry Hyb - Prius
    CO FTP75: ----------- ok ------ poor ----- ok ------ ok ----- good ---- good
    CO US06: ------------ NA ------ good ----- poor ---- ok ----- poor ---- good
    CO SC03: ------------ NA ------ good ----- ok ------ poor --- good ---- ok
    NOx FTP75: ---------- poor ---- ok ------- good ---- ok ----- good ---- good
    NOx Hwy: ------------ poor ---- ok ------- good ---- ok ----- good ---- good
    NMOGs FTP75: -------- ok ------ ok ------- good ---- poor --- good ---- good
    HC-NM + NOx COMP: --- poor ---- NA ------- good ---- ok ----- good ---- ok
    HC-NM + NOx US06: --- NA ------ poor ----- ok ------ good --- good ---- ok
    HC-NM + NOx SC03: --- NA ------ poor ----- good ---- good --- good ---- ok
    PM FTP75: ----------- poor ---- poor ----- good ---- good --- good ---- good
    HC Ancilliary: ------ good ---- good ----- poor ---- poor --- poor ---- ok
    HC Local: ----------- ok ------ ok ------- good ---- poor --- ok ------ ok
    CO2: ---------------- ok ------ ok ------- poor ---- ok ----- ok ------ good
    Crude Oil Cons: ----- ok ------ ok ------- poor ---- ok ----- ok ------ good
    Fuel Costs: ---------
    ok ------ ok ------- poor ---- ok ----- ok ------ good
    Pass Vol: ----------- poor ---- ok ------- ok ------ ok ----- good ---- good
    Cargo Vol: ---------- poor ---- ok ------- ok ------ good --- poor ---- ok
    5 Year Cost to Own: - ok ------ poor ----- ok ------ good --- ok ------ good
    CR Reliability: ----- ok ------ ok ------- ok ------ good --- good ---- good

    Total poor: --------- 6 ------- 5 -------- 5 ------- 4 ------ 3 --------- 0
    Total ok: ----------- 8 ------- 10 ------- 7 ------- 9 ------ 4 --------- 7
    Total good: --------- 1 ------- 3 -------- 7 ------- 6 ------ 11 -------- 12

    I give VW cudos for a vast improvement in the Jetta TDI. I would certianly turn my own recommendation from a "don't buy" on the '06s and earlier to a "nuetral". There's nothing particularly aggregious in the emissions data, though its not stellar. There does seem to be some validity to the arguments regarding evaporative emissions, although I think they need to be considered in the proper perspective. If you are set on a Jetta I think its definately worth considering vs. the 5 cyl. and almost certainly over the turbo. It seems like you're basically trading not quite as good emissions for lower CO2 and oil consumption. The fuel cost advantage looks to be lost in the higher initial cost and maintenance though. It would be a pretty good competitor against the Camry Hybrid excpet that the Camry is bigger. It would be a pretty good choice vs. the Fit except that the Fit is much cheaper. Probably a better choice than pretty much any American car, and certainly pretty much any SUV (except maybe Escape Hybrid).

    If your primary concerns are Energy Independance, Fuel Costs, Total Ownership Cost, Global Climate Change, or Air Quality, I still don't think that the '09 TDI is in the same league as the Prius. Also bear in mind that the Prius is now 5 years old in its current incarnation, and much of it is 10+ year old technology. There is a ground up refresh slated to arrive spring '09 as a '10 model that is somewhat bigger (almost Camry sized), faster, lower emisions, and 10-15% better fuel economy. You might be ready to call BS, but that is exactly what they delivered with the '04 Gen II refresh, so it sounds feasible. The same year we should see a high end Lexus version with similar efficiency, and the larger Prius makes room for a smaller even more efficient mini-Prius. Pluggins are expected to start showing up in fleets in 2010 and general release sometime after that. Seems to me that will make sure the Jetta TDI stays a league down. Now what Honda does next year could be very interesting....
    Imagine the 2010 Toyota Prius - Inside Line

    Rob
  2. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    zo
    if i am correct the prius is the best almost at all..
    and stil no reason to buy a modern diesel
  3. greg s

    greg s New Member

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    I never see how the batteries are made for the Prius. The total manufacturing and overall life of a Prius is worse for the environment than a Hummer.

    The nickel in the battery is strip mined in Canada which release a lot of S02 into the envrinoment (acis rain). Then the nickel is shipped to England for processing. Then it is shipped to China for even more processing and then shipped to Japan for manufacturing. Finally, they are sent to the US for sales.

    While it is absolutely correct that the day to day running of a Prius is the most environment friendly option, the manufacturing of the Prius is by far the worst environment friendly option and combining the two tips the Prius as overall worse for the environment than a Hummer.

    Buy a deisel.
  4. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    Search the forums "dust to dust" Greg, you are very wrong. The study you refer to was debunked a very long time ago. I can't believe people still believe it.
  5. Politburo

    Politburo Active Member

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    If the Prius is so bad, why did you buy one?
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web 03 and 10 Prius

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    It will be a better report when it includes the 2010 Prius, ZVW30, information. The earlier, NHW20 model, 2004-09, is available only on the used market.

    Bob Wilson
  7. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    This thread was dug up from the dead by a deisel (sic) fan who registered just to stir up trouble. Don't feed the trolls.
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web 03 and 10 Prius

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    They are made like the ordinary batteries in cell phones, laptops and every other battery. Nothing remarkable except better quality. The other stuff is pure nonsense. In fact the original article about the Canadian nickel mining was withdrawn by the Daily Mail. Your source is inaccurate.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. If I had a nickel for every bogus nickel mine story ...
  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    What can I say? There are Nickel in the Diesel engine block also.
  10. DeadPhish

    DeadPhish Senior Member

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    Every bit of the raw materials for both the Jetta TDI and the Prius are imported into the respective countries. Neither Germany nor Japan has these raw materials in sufficient quantity and quality to make any of the part.

    The raw materials for the parts come from all over the world then are fabricated and put together in the respective countries. Looking at it from this perspective both vehicles are horrible for the environment. But then to those that believe this one should stop all international trade and we should all return to farming.

    So your point is?
  11. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North Staff Member

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    Obviously you've never been to Sudbury. Why don't you stop being a follower and actually check the "facts" that you've been reading so much about?


    Oh and while you're at it, stop using your forks, spoons, knives, mics, speakers, coins and rechargeable batteries cause they all have nickel in them. Actually, why don't you toss your cellphone in the trash (oops, I mean recycling bin) cause that nickel in there?? yeah it's from that Sudbury mine and you're killing ALL of us. :rolleyes:



    He doesn't have one. The profile says he has a 2005 German-spec Prius yet he's from Atlanta. Riiiiight.
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Thanks much to OP for the emissions data. That was a lot of work to bring together. I also agree with the conclusion: diesel emissions, for the TDI VW at least, has improved dramatically. Much more than I realized, and perhaps now on par with an average petrol car if age and maintenance does not drag the results down. Truly excellent news.

    Would I buy one ? Silly question -- Prius exists
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Yep, here we go again

    A Hummer has FAR more nickel content than a Prius. My FJ Cruiser has far more nickel content than a Prius.

    Here's a brilliant idea: look up all the wonderful uses for nickel. I'll save you the time, straight from the horses mouth

    Nickel & Its Uses

    Applications

    Check out the nifty graph "end use" here:

    Nickel & Its Uses - About Nickel

    Ok, my cats have calmed down. Time to go to bed

    The "moonscape" around INCO/Vale's mine at Sudbury, Ontario was cleaned up starting in the late 1970's.

    Around 1% of that mine's yearly output is sold to Toyota, for ALL uses not just the batteries.
  14. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    You can pry my Stainless Steel fork from my cold dead fingers. Trust me on this: you do NOT want to see me eat using my fingers

    It's ... horrifying
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web 03 and 10 Prius

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    Here is what the California Air Resources Board web site reports when comparing the 2010 Prius and 2010 Jetta TDI:
    [​IMG]

    If I read this correctly, the Jetta has over 4 times the "Annual Smog Emissions", 1502 g, as the 2010 Prius, 360 g. Thanks for the tip about checking the CARB data.

    Bob Wilson
  16. seftonm

    seftonm Member

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    I'm curious how they figured out the greenhouse gas emissions. I'll be brief because I'm tired and possibly wrong because I'm not thinking too clearly right now. But it seems high to me to have the Jetta TDI emitting 2.6x as much GHG's as the Prius. They much be counting more than just tailpipe CO2, but I can't figure out what. Also, wtf is with the 2010 Prius being listed with a 1.5L V4? At least they got the displacement right for the Jetta, although a V4 TDI would be an interesting beast.

    I went through Sudbury a couple months ago. Unfortunately, the acid rain caused my hat to melt.


    Actually, it was a nice place and I didn't see or smell any evidence of a mining operation. It's been vastly improved since the acid rain destroyed things many decades ago.
  17. wxman

    wxman Member

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    Hi Bob,

    Looks like you're reading it correctly, but the CARB "smog score" is problematic on at least two fronts.

    First, the "smog score" apparently doesn't even include evaporative emissions from the vehicle itself (in spite of stating that they do), never mind fugitive evaporative emissions from distribution and handling of the fuel. Diesel fuel is essentially non-volatile, so these additional emissions are not associated with diesel vehicles. Air quality is degraded at least as much by these evaporative emissions as the HC emissions from the tailpipe of a vehicle itself.

    Second, CARB assumes the relative "smog-forming" potential of NOx and HC is equivalent. There are many peer-reviewed studies of the "weekend ozone effect" that conclude that relatively larger reductions in ambient NOx levels than ambient HC levels generally do not result in lower ambient ozone ("smog") levels, and they may actually increase SIGNIFICANTLY under some conditions, conditions found especially frequently in Southern California ("VOC-limited").
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web 03 and 10 Prius

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    I was trying to find the CARB numbers for the 2010 Prius so I started looking around their home page. They had a "user" area that included comparison of different vehicles. So I picked their 2010 model Prius and Jetta TDI. Apparently they are not very good they are about keeping the web page current with the data. They show the 2009 and 2010 Prius as having identical data. But as a non-Californian taking a peek around their web site, this is what I found following their "Education" tab.

    Checking the archives, I found this posting about CARB testing of the 2010:



    Thanks Rob (belated!)

    I've uploaded the CARB PDF.

    Bob Wilson

    Attached Files:

  19. Indyking

    Indyking Happy Hyundai owner...

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    I think greg s was referring to the rare metal batteries only... TDI's do not have those batteries… raw materials for parts is not in question here as those are present in all cars… what makes a hybrid different is the presence of rare metal batteries…

    It is completely true that the source and environment impact of producing Prius batteries were never adequately clarified to the general public…
  20. Indyking

    Indyking Happy Hyundai owner...

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    Hum...I just wonder how much rare metals is present in a cell phone compared to the Prius huge battery and what would happen to the environment if mass production of those batteries is expanded for dozens of other cars... that’s what is about to happen… good luck planet earth and people who live on it…
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