2012 Prius Plug-In Product Info (pdf)

As a guess, you can fill in total power on the Leaf as 107 HP.

 

LOL - yes. BTW, I could never find Volt's engine hp or total power when I tried ...

 

Of course, I realized the answer after rereading my post. The standard trim is priced to sell regardless the tax credit. The Advanced trim should/would be priced at $37K, but b/c the people who are willing to buy the Advanced trim would probably buy regardless of the tax credit, it's priced $2.5K higher at $39.5K. Price differentiation from Econ 101...

 

You where probably correct with that assumption, except for people who already have the advanced technology package in a 2010 or 2011 Prius, that pricing just angers us, and I for one will probably not upgrade to the PHV Prius, but the Leaf looks better and better now at that $40K price, with triple the Federal credit of $7,500.00 versus $2,500.00 for the Prius PHV.

 

Here you go.
2011 Chevy Volt Specs and Features | Chevrolet

 

My thoughts exactly (and I own a Gen II Prius).

Comparing the Volt to a Prius Plug-in Advanced may not be a fair comparison, but I can't get the thought out of my mind. I find it very interesting how the federal credit which is optimized for the Volt is lowering my perception of the Prius Plug-in...

 

This is something I've talked about a lot. The way tax credit is structured, marginal cost of extra battery is almosr zero until 16kwh. This is why PIP should have had a larger battery with a larger fed tax cr.

 

I disagree that the PIP should have had a larger battery. The view that the Prius PHV Advanced is a little pricey has merit, but a larger battery pack is a negative in my view. It is more dead weight to carry around after it is depleted of charge and significantly, a much larger expense waiting when a battery change is required as will be the case for most electric cars during their lifetime. We overlook such later expenses and think only of up front expenses. I keep track of lifetime expenses for my cars.

If your use involves much other than local driving, the more petrol economical Prius PHV makes more sense with the smaller (lighter) and less expensive to replace battery.

From all that I can tell, the greater tax credit will not offset the greater battery replacement cost unless there are as yet unknown battery advances.

 

Interesting, I hadn't considered that idea. If the Advanced had more range, then it would definitely look more attractive. But I think the problem is that setting a hard criteria for battery capacity signals manufacturer's to target that battery capacity. The criteria should have been that the largest EV range gets the maximum credit and prorate for all other vehicles. That way manufacturer's would have to compete/optimize for efficiency and range. Right now a 16KWH Hummer that gets 1 mile of EV range could get the full tax credit.

That's incorrect. First, it's not clear to me that you have to replace battery during the lifetime of the car. This was FUD for the Prius HEV when it first came out. Toyota tends to engineer conservatively, so I would expect they would try to make the battery last the life of the vehicle. But let's say that you drive it some extraordinary number of miles and that it does have to be replaced.

The lifetime of a battery is a function of how much the battery is discharged. Let's say you have a battery that's twice as large. If you fully discharge both the 1x and the 2x battery in use, you will have to replace the 2x battery after 2x the miles. But if you don't fully discharge the 2x battery, the 2x battery will last more than 2x the life of the 1x battery. So while the cost of replacing the battery is larger, it is offset by the longer battery life. If Toyota engineered the battery life conservatively (and there is ample precedent for this assumption), you would probably go from a situation where you would have to replace the battery to never having to replace the battery.

 

ryogajyc

Your opinion about whether the tax credit should have been targeted vehicle range rather than battery size is not something I wish to address. Your comment about battery lifetime is.

I am not a battery engineer but I have owned two EVs and have read a lot about batteries and what I have learned is different from what you say.

First what we know about the NiMH batteries in the Prius does not apply entirely to Lithium Ion batteries. Lithium Ion batteries decay with time totally without respect to use. Heavy use can also contribute to their decay. Misuse such as overheating and discharge to the point of near polarity reversal can also contribute to the demise of batteries. Batteries in a Toyota vehicle are probably more durable because Toyota has a history of very good battery management.

My clue that, for example Leaf batteries will normally be replaced in the life of the car, is the statement by Nissan that 70% to 80% of the range will remain in ten years. That is the the level of battery decay which is widely accepted as justifying battery replacement.

I agree that Toyota has a history of engineering all things conservatively including batteries. But Toyota has publicly stated reluctance regarding Lithium Ion batteries and is not yet going "whole hog" with them. There is still a lot to learn which only time will tell for sure. I note, however, that the warranty for the PHV batteries is the same as the NiMH batteries which is notable.

If Toyota is more comfortable with small batteries, so am I.

 

Allannde, you are correct that I incorrectly applied NiMH battery life degradation mechanisms to the Li-ion of the Prius Plug-in. However, after reading up on Li-ion batteries, my conclusion is still the same.

Increasing the battery size increases the number of cells, which would decrease the amount of current per cell. In turn, that increases battery life. Perhaps this is the reason that Toyota is reluctant to use Li-ion in the HEV. The small size of the battery in the HEV could require such large current draw that a Li-on traction battery life would be too short.

Furthermore, high charge states decrease battery life so with a larger battery, you could charge the battery to a lower charge state, but get the same number of EV miles and a longer battery life.

 

Allannde, I agree with you, the jury is still out in lion batteries. They look good on paper and should be a better alternative, but real life has not proven it yet...

As for the warranty's I think they are federal and State mandated...

 

I don't know if I missed anyone else pointing out the error, the anticipated tax credit brings the Pip under 30 to 29,500. But thanks for your chart... I appreciate it...

 

The chart does not take account of the standard equipments. Leaf and Volt equipment level is not comparable.

 

good point.

 

Hoping someone else will make a feature comparison chart and show apples to apples comparison.

 

After tax number actually adds the destination charge. I'll make that clear in the next version.

 

Good comparison specs chart, Volt is 616 lbs heavier than the Prius Plug-in,... needs a weight loss program!

 

at least 3/4 that number is due to the 16KW pack in the Volt, remember the PiP only has the 4.4KW pack. So its not exactly an apples to apples comparison looking at weight only.

I would rather have the extra 600 pounds and have a 16KW pack in the PiP, wouldn't you? PiP 4.4KW pack is supposed to weigh in at #176, 11.6 addional KW (if it could fit), would add another #464, using the same KW/weight ratio.

 

You have a point, except that 16Kwh battery not only weighs more and takes more space, but cost more. I have a round trip commute to my office of 12.2 mile and would not want to buy more battery until prices come down a bit and range goes up.